Why your business needs a manifesto: A conversation with brand voice expert Justin Blackman

[00:00:00] Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

[00:00:21] Caitlin: All right. Well, today I have international guest, Justin Blackman. So Justin is a brand voice expert who goes overboard. He’s written for more than 429 people and dozens of brands and created voice guides for industry experts, including Amy Porterfield, Stu McLaren, Todd Herman, and Danny Iny.

[00:00:42] Caitlin: That’s a big flex. He uses a process called brand ventriloquism to analyze and replicate the nuances that make your writing voice unique and documents it so other writers can scale your content without sacrificing authenticity. He’s worked with top brands such as Puma, IHG Hotels, 5 Hour Energy and Red Bull.

[00:01:02] Caitlin: When not embellishing his own bio, he runs workshops at brand voice Academy to evolve your style, help you sound like any client and add punch power and pop to your everyday writing. All the people say he’s pretty fly for a right guy. So good. What a great, example of a fun personality pack bio.

[00:01:21] Caitlin: Well, welcome Justin Blackman. I’m so, so, so excited you’re here. I say I’m so excited every time I record an episode, but I truly am. thank you for

[00:01:29] Justin: you mean it.

[00:01:30] Caitlin: Did I read

[00:01:31] Justin: you mean it.

[00:01:33] Caitlin: That’s it. I do also need to update my brand. got brand voice guide for my business and had a few more expressions for my podcast.

[00:01:41] Caitlin: I think I need to,

[00:01:42] Justin: You know how to do it, so I

[00:01:45] Caitlin: that’s it. I know how to do it. I love it. I’m really curious to hear first, about your copywriting career and how it’s changed and evolved because at the moment, well, you’re doing brand voice, but you’ve had an interest in manifestos, which I think is so interesting.

[00:02:01] Caitlin: So I’d love to hear how you got there.

[00:02:03] Justin: Yeah, so, you know, I was originally in field marketing. I worked for brands like Puma and Red Bull, and I did a lot of the consumer sampling. So like with Red Bull, the mini Coopers with the big can on the back, I used to run those programs and I helped train the people that were speaking to everyone.

[00:02:18] Justin: And that’s where I was learning about the power of conversation. And then as I sort of aged out of field marketing, like I went to college campuses and I started calling you, sir, I was like, all right, I can’t necessarily do this anymore. I’m not the right representative of the brand. It hurt my soul. So I had to move to like the offices where I wasn’t in the field, but I began writing the scripts for consumer samplers.

[00:02:39] Justin: And that’s where I started learning more about conversion copy and eventually just moved into copywriting. So rather than speaking to consumers, I was writing to them and, you know, I found success pretty quickly because I had, just this sort of good background behind me. And so I was, like a regular copywriter, I guess you would say.

[00:02:58] Justin: I was working for hotel companies and all that. And then as I moved toward my own business, I began writing for tons and tons of people. I got hired by an agency where I wrote for, I think, 429 different people and brands over the course of two years. So I got really into voice. And I started training people about this.

[00:03:15] Justin: And, I had a partner, Abby Woodcock, and she and I created a, a program about brand voice, which you’ve been through. And I saw more people talking about brand voice. And some of them had seen some free workshops by me or had read the book that we give away for free. And they were talking like they were experts.

[00:03:35] Justin: And I was just like, no, you just read a blog post. And that doesn’t make you an expert. And it felt insulting to me for someone who had spent between four and six years researching this before I was even ready to talk about it. And I was angry about it. And. When I started talking about it, I was getting passionate.

[00:03:59] Justin: and I cared about the depth about the amount of time that I’ve spent on this. And I didn’t like this shallowness that other people were pretending to have. And I started writing a little bit about it. And when I did like my hands literally started to shake. And I was, there was this passion, there was this energy to it.

[00:04:17] Justin: And people are like, where is this? Where’s this coming from? I was like, I have this fight in me. And they’re like, you need to write about it. And then as a copywriter, I don’t like admitting this, but I was talking to someone else and they said to you, mastery matters. Mastery matters here. And I was like, all right, that’s it.

[00:04:35] Justin: That’s, that’s now the slogan. It hit me. I was like, it does. And I went into this four month deep dive into what mastery was. And then I started writing about it. And when I did, like, there was this passion. And I didn’t realize it until I was writing this stuff. And I was writing some stuff for other people that had this passion to it, that I realized that those were essentially manifestos.

[00:04:58] Justin: I wasn’t even sure what the term manifesto was or what it meant. But people who read it said, this reads like a manifesto. And I said, what’s that? I started doing research. I was like, oh, I know how to do this. Because I’ve been focusing on it and I’ve been changing the messaging and I’m doing it for other people.

[00:05:15] Justin: And I didn’t want to teach like, here’s how to write a manifesto. What I wanted to do is I wanted to ignite that fire in people that I had. And I’d actually had a launch planned for Brand Voice Visionary, which is my biggest program of the year. And this passion was in me and I was like, you know what, I’m pausing this launch.

[00:05:33] Justin: Because I need to talk about this stuff right now. And it got to the point where not talking about it was worse than pausing a launch.

[00:05:42] Caitlin: Yeah. Yes.

[00:05:44] Justin: this energy and this passion. I needed to go with it. And it turns out that a lot of other people were coming to me because they were lacking some sort of passion right now, or the world was just sort of burnt out.

[00:05:54] Justin: And it’s like, this feels important. So I created a workshop, which honestly, the main goal of the workshop was to fire you up. It wasn’t, here’s how to write a manifesto, like with like step one, do this. It was, let’s get you pissed off. Let’s get you angry, but then also let’s bring you to a place of good.

[00:06:14] Justin: So you’re going to feel, you’re going to know what your differentiator is. You’re going to know what your fight is. You know, what hill you’re going to plant your flag on. And by talking about this, it brings other people to you. People are missing this energy. Like we’re at a point right now where the cost of information is zero.

[00:06:31] Justin: Like you go to any Bard or Gemini or Chat GPT, any of that stuff you can put in a Google search, there’s tons of information. So the way to differentiate yourself right now is to have a fight, to have a cause, to have this passion that you believe in but people were like. Getting that on paper into a way that it could actually attract people and to reach people.

[00:06:53] Justin: That’s where the manifesto comes in. And I just wanted to give people access to a resource to create one and to finally take a stand on something.

[00:07:01] Caitlin: Yeah. It’s incredible that it’s come out of a place of like, you were pissed off. You were angry. You’re like this, like online world where it is, it’s so shallow. It’s like anyone can be an expert. And that’s what blew me away when I first started my business and got into the online space. And I was like, wow, this is like wild.

[00:07:20] Caitlin: So I’m so glad that people like you existed or are there to kind of bring it back down a bit. But, no, but even like, well. The power of manifesto is we’re in it right now in terms of my business and like this podcast and my group and everything. It came from, yeah, the manifesto maker, but that was the origin because I started doing that.

[00:07:41] Caitlin: And then I was writing, initially started writing about copywriting, I think. And then all of a sudden I started writing about health professionals and like about how we have to be like, we’re not. Treated like we’re humans and I was just getting really upset about that and like that we have to be boxed in.

[00:07:57] Caitlin: I was getting really enraged and then it just snowballed and then here we are.

[00:08:02] Justin: Yeah. That’s it. it’s kind of getting in touch with your anger, but understanding where it’s coming from and what the real value is. It’s never what you expect. Like, yeah, you begin this with copywriting, but like, no, this isn’t what it’s about. And then I’d go a little deeper. Oh, that’s what it’s about.

[00:08:17] Justin: And I was like, no. And then like, then you tap a nerve and you’re like, Oh, what’s here. And like, for me, I was reading something, I don’t even remember what it was, but it was about being proud of what you work. And then I remember that like pride is one of the seven deadly sins, and all of a sudden I got really mad at the Catholic church.

[00:08:35] Justin: I’m not even Catholic, but I was like, whoa, that’s an interesting response. What happened there? And I was like, why is pride bad? I should feel good about what I do and like, okay, excessive pride is bad, but I don’t like the way that like I wasn’t allowed to, and this goes back to some of the mindset work that I’ve done over the years where it’s like this feel like feeling that it was being, you’re not allowed to feel like you’re better than someone else.

[00:09:00] Justin: And when it comes to, and I get that like as a sense, it’s not about, you shouldn’t value certain elements over someone else, but when it comes to your work and your talent, it’s okay to feel pride and it’s okay to be better than someone else. And it took me a while to get past that, but I realized that I wasn’t allowed to feel proud about it because it was like pride is a sin. And maybe it’s a misinterpretation, but that’s sort of something that was, ingrained in me. And then it’s like, no, I want people to feel good about this. So, things like that start working into your manifesto. And just these personal beliefs and finding this cause that’s way deeper than just writing words that convert.

[00:09:44] Justin: You know, it’s, it’s not that.

[00:09:46] Caitlin: Yeah. Exactly. That’s something that’s so deep and even, and this is something that comes up quite a bit in these conversations is that it has to be deeper even like, I haven’t read Simon Sinek’s book. start with why, but for me, I feel like it needs to be really, really deep. it needs to be something that like shakes at your core.

[00:10:04] Caitlin: Like you said, you’re like, so enraged that your hand was shaking. It needs to be that level

[00:10:10] Justin: and it’s even that the whole Simon Sinek start with why it’s people that like, sure, I’ve seen the TED talk millions of people have seen that TED talk, but now they’re oh, yes, I get that. That’s brilliant. And then they stop there. And they think that they understand what it means. You got the cliff notes version of it.

[00:10:26] Justin: There’s someone that’s done decades of research on this. Simon Sinek right now is just the face of it. But I don’t even really credit him with all of this stuff. Yeah, he probably brought it into light. But I don’t like just the face of things. I like the people that are behind the scenes doing it.

[00:10:40] Justin: Like Brene Brown. It’s easy to bring her up because she’s written like Good Parent Manifesto. She has a bunch of manifestos and they’re brilliant. Brene Brown is someone who never sought the spotlight. She was a researcher studying emotion and things like that. And it resonated and people elevated her and status.

[00:10:58] Justin: They wanted her to learn more. She hit a nerve and like a collective nerve across the universe, which elevated her. She is deserving of the spotlight. She didn’t seek it. It found her because of the work that she was doing. That’s mastery. That’s going deeper than anyone ever should. And it’s finding new levels of things.

[00:11:18] Justin: And yeah, that’s what I do with voice. I say that I go deeper than anyone ever should. And there are times that I get lost in it and I like it. And there are times that I see people’s writing patterns, but I actually miss what they’re talking about. and I get that. but I like it. I like living in the big ones and the details and like the, just the dirty corners of people’s penmanship,

[00:11:39] Caitlin: Oh, I love that. That’s so exciting. Have you always been, is that always been a characteristic with you cause I feel like that’s quite an interesting. Part of creativity. Tell me about that with you.

[00:11:52] Justin: it comes from my dad for sure. he went to Scotland. This was 20 years ago at this point. And, you know, we live in the States and we’re like, the oldest thing is like a hundred years old and he goes to Scotland and there’s real history, you know, like medieval stuff is still around and he’s looking around and, when he came home, I was like, so what was the coolest thing you saw?

[00:12:16] Justin: And he said, the hinges. I’m like, what? He’s like, they were these tours around the castles and they were talking about the events that happened there. And as they’re talking, I’m looking around that. I noticed the door hinges. on these castle walls, on the doors. And you can see all of the, the ball peen hammer strikes on it, and the nails, and every screw is different because they were created by hand.

[00:12:41] Justin: And he lost track of the tour because he started looking at these, the hinges to understand the craftsmanship that went into this without the tools that we have, without all the mass produced things. how the hinges came together, how that they created the first mechanical engineering. of the day and I love that about him and I’m honoured that lives in me that he gave me that gene.

[00:13:05] Justin: so I like the hinges and I just kind of always have. It’s the nerdy stuff that you don’t think anyone cares about. And most people don’t. But when you start talking about it, certain people just like, they lean in and like, talk more. when you find your game.

[00:13:22] Caitlin: Definitely. Because that’s, like, with you and Abby, that happened, wasn’t it? Like, she was giving us a talk and then you were the one that was the first one up there.

[00:13:30] Justin: Yeah, yeah. I was like, I need to know more about this. And she was like, I don’t know what else I can teach you. And then she and I just became friendly going back and forth, sharing everything we found about this. And then she created a program. And then I was like, Oh, have you seen this? Have you seen that?

[00:13:44] Justin: And she’s like, do you want to come in and teach this? And then she got to a point where she kind of felt like she had it.she had taught what she needed to teach and was ready to move on. And I was like, Oh, I’m just getting started. And then, so like we did the passing of the torch and, you know, I owe the world to her,for bringing this in and opening my eyes to it and then, just being kind enough and good enough to pass it on to me so I can bring it into something even further.

[00:14:12] Caitlin: That’s it. You’re continuing it. How lucky you found each other. But that’s such a gift that you have, that you’re looking at the details but not just seeing them. You’re like, You want to understand them and you’re curious about that. And it just shows that, yeah, the voice work, because that’s exactly what it is, isn’t it?

[00:14:30] Caitlin: It’s diving deeper and really like pulling apart people’s writing and understanding at that super duper deep level.

[00:14:39] Justin: yeah. And it’s, you know, it’s one thing to be able to write something and like people like, oh yeah, I get it. Like you can capture the voice, you can capture the message. Most good copywriters can capture the message pretty easily. Understanding the voice at a deeper level, and this isn’t applicable to everybody, but for a lot of copywriters, especially personal brands, but absolutely it works for corporate brands as well.

[00:15:00] Justin: I’ve worked for tons of corporate brands. Understanding the reasoning behind the word choice, why they’re making, saying this instead of that. Not just being able to, oh, you want this word instead? Sure, I can change that, but understanding why they want that change. some of the ingrained beliefs about what’s there, what’s really there.

[00:15:19] Justin: And Ben Settle has a line that I love. He says that he reads behind the words, not between the words, but reading behind the words.

[00:15:25] Caitlin: Oh, that’s cool.

[00:15:26] Justin: I like that. I like to read behind the words. and it’s easy for someone, like, I rail against the adjective friendly. Like, oh, I want the writing to be more friendly.

[00:15:35] Justin: Well, what the hell does that mean? How many friends do you have? They’re all friendly in some different way. Let’s say you have, hell, you can even narrow it down to six good friends that you have. they’re all friendly in certain ways, but they all talk differently. So, even though the term friendly seems objective, you’re like, okay, I should understand what that means, we all have different interpretations of it.

[00:15:55] Justin: And, you know, one of the things I say, it’s like, if someone tells you to write in the color blue, well, there are 360 shades of blue, which one do you want? are 360 levels of friendly. Which one do you want? That’s the nuance and understanding those details on that, that much deeper level than most copywriters will ever go.

[00:16:12] Justin: That’s where I live. And I love being here. It’s not for everybody, but for those that, and you’ve been down with me, you know, it,

[00:16:20] Caitlin: Yes. Down the rabbit hole.

[00:16:22] Justin: I love it here.

[00:16:23] Caitlin: Yeah. So, it is, it’s really exciting. I remember when I first learned about you and I learned about the work and everything. It made me so excited about, about copywriting and being in this field. But I’m curious, what’s the link? Like, what do you think the link is with brand voice and manifestos?

[00:16:40] Justin: So there, when I first started it, honestly, I didn’t know that there was one. And that was one of the reasons why I was cautious. And I’m slightly hesitant at one point to even launch the workshop because I’m like, well, I’m focused on voice manifesto isn’t about voice. It turns out that a manifesto is pretty damn important to voice.

[00:16:59] Justin: It gives you that deeper understanding on a more substantial level. Like it’s not an about page. it’s an about page with passion. And it’s not who we are. It’s why we are. And, you know, a little bit this time and sit and start with why you can not say it, but it, that’s what it does. But it’s the why plus the how, and.

[00:17:24] Justin: it’s the call to arms. It’s the deeper understanding of what it is that we do and why we do it. That seasons the voice. It ultimately, it guides the voice. it will use the right level of words, the more energetic words it gives. The writing more oomph, more power, just gives it a good kick in the pants.

[00:17:43] Justin: I think a good manifesto can ignite a brand voice. And,

[00:17:47] Caitlin: It really gives it that.

[00:17:48] Justin: it’s not a need to have, but it can be a friggin awesome to have.

[00:17:53] Caitlin: And particularly today where there’s so many businesses and so many brands and things like that, where it’s so important to have that customer, loyalty and trust and have people that are like, yes, I absolutely love, love, love your business and your brand. It makes sense to have a manifesto to rally those people for sure.

[00:18:15] Justin: Yeah. And it’s something deeper than like add blank. We believe blank like that. That’s corporate garbage. It doesn’t mean anything. A good manifesto. You want to chisel the words in the wall behind the receptionist desks. You want it like tattooed on your arm, or over your heart. Like that’s what a good manifesto should do.

[00:18:35] Justin: It should make you feel something.

[00:18:37] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:18:38] Justin: statement. it’s an internal, I don’t know, the 10 commandment type of thing. it’s the cornerstone.

[00:18:45] Caitlin: Yes. Yeah. Definitely. when you’re just talking that I thought you must’ve seen so much corporate gobbledygook by over your time so I can see like

[00:18:55] Justin: are some good ones. Yeah, but there there’s a lot of I didn’t want to go too deep into it. I don’t want to rail against corporate manifestos. Somebody wrote those. It means something to someone

[00:19:07] Caitlin: yeah, that’s true.

[00:19:08] Justin: that I don’t and I want to be clear that with manifesto maker this wasn’t how to do it for clients. I don’t teach how to do it for clients.

[00:19:16] Justin: I help you write it for you. And maybe one day we’ll teach one for how to do it for clients. But right now I don’t feel like that’s my place. My main thing is helping you figure out your manifesto. I don’t want to write it for you. I’m not saying that you should offer this as a service, but having one has meant the world to me and it’s given me this fire and passion and it’s lit me up.

[00:19:42] Justin: It brought me from a place of burnout to being lit up.

[00:19:45] Caitlin: Oh, that’s so interesting. Say more about that. Like about the, yeah, the burnout, but then being lit up now through, yeah.

[00:19:53] Justin: I understand the real message of what I have, like the whole, for me, mastery matters here. There are, you can read. a blog post about brown voice and get the overall idea. Vocabulary, tone, cadence. Cool, I get it. That doesn’t mean you know how to do it. I can watch a video about Taekwondo. I can’t necessarily block a punch or, throw a kick.

[00:20:15] Justin: I can’t, I don’t know how to do it. Too many people think that they have. And like, I don’t, for me, just understanding why I care about the depth, the work, the effort, the true meaning of what mastery is. it was validating honestly, there was a part of me, like even with Chat GPT and all this stuff, why did I care?

[00:20:37] Justin: Why did I want to fight? And it’s because I don’t believe that I can be replaced by, by AI. Sure, it is good. I use AI. I think it’s great. I don’t think it can do what I do, at least not yet. But if I were to believe that, it would mean that everything that I’ve done is now irrelevant. And I don’t want to believe it.

[00:20:55] Caitlin: you

[00:20:56] Justin: it. Because I know the level of passion and depth that I can write with and find within people. It’s not just about me writing. It’s about what I can do for people and the results that I’ve seen. You started a podcast after all this. I know other people that have written books, who have created programs, who have literally changed their entire business because of this.

[00:21:17] Caitlin: I know this is something I can help people with. That’s not something AI can do. It’s validation for me. And it’s not that I’m seeking the validation. At one point it was, at now I’m not.you’re allowed to, I think.

[00:21:29] Justin: it’s a whole other mindset stuff that I can recommend people. but that it’s that pride in what I do.

[00:21:37] Justin: that was part of it that lit me up. And honestly, I don’t even remember what the original question was that you asked at this point, but it was, this drive that I just, I felt the need to share and to help people find on their own.

[00:21:51] Caitlin: Yeah, I think it’s been, hugely beneficial, but I can speak to myself beneficial for me, but I could just imagine how ripple effect that has on yeah, people’s lives because business, I think, people who start businesses, I think they want to enjoy their work and there’s a bit of a different feel there.

[00:22:08] Caitlin: And so that if they’re feeling a bit burnt out, a bit like discouraged or that, not that, you know, interested, having a manifesto or something that actually does light them up is so powerful for their wellbeing. I think it’s, yeah, I hadn’t really thought about that from a wellbeing point of view. And that’s so exciting to me.

[00:22:26] Caitlin: So thank you for that. Thank you for.

[00:22:28] Justin: Oh, that’s what it was. You had asked about, being burnt out versus lit up. Yeah. But by understanding this message, it allowed me to write longer emails and allowed me to get more passionate with everything. It allowed me to understand what my real message was. And it’s I’m not going to give you a 30 second how to video.

[00:22:47] Justin: I’m going to go deep. If you don’t want to go deep, I’m not for you. A manifesto, one of the things I say, it’s both a banner and a bouncer. So it attracts people to you, but it also says you’re not allowed in. if you’re looking for a quick, easy win, I’m not for you. And that’s okay. And like, as far as the bouncer, yeah, I got mad at all the people promising that copywriting as a quick, easy way to make money.

[00:23:10] Justin: It’s not been doing this for years and decades and I’m still learning. And I hate that people are telling everyone, Oh yeah, robots can do that now and this and that, and it like, it gave me, I understood where my line in the sand was. And that was kind of the big thing. I understood where that was and that lit me up.

[00:23:29] Justin: I can defend this line. I will not cross. Yeah. And that’s what lit me up.

[00:23:34] Caitlin: Definitely, it’s so exciting,

[00:23:38] Caitlin: truly is. It gives like work that like life or that spark or like the word spark, but it’s something about that. It’s, it’s really cool. But do you think like every business should have one?

[00:23:51] Justin: it’s hard for me to say yes to that.cause I don’t think it really does much for a corporate, world. I think a lot of them have mission statements that don’t do anything

[00:24:00] Caitlin: that’s,

[00:24:00] Justin: for a freelancer. I think it’s awesome to have it, for small businesses where it can be defended and worked into and brought to life and, plant the flag on the hill that you’re going to die on.

[00:24:13] Justin: I think it’s important. I wouldn’t say it’s necessary. I would say that it’s awesome to have for businesses who give a shit.

[00:24:21] Caitlin: Yes. I love that. That’s good. That’s so good. I was, I was watching Jerry Maguire earlier this week and like how he got like fired. Right. Well, I don’t think it was a manifesto. I think it was a

[00:24:33] Justin: It’s a mission

[00:24:34] Caitlin: or something. Mission statement. There you go. Maybe you should have written a manifesto.

[00:24:37] Caitlin: That’s

[00:24:39] Justin: He kind of did was the fewer clients, less money. That was, it was a manifesto. I would argue that.

[00:24:45] Caitlin: That was a manifesto. Interesting. Yeah. Cause I was thinking about that and I was thinking about you and I was like, Oh, this is interesting that I’m watching this this week. but I’ve loved our chat. how can people get in contact with you or find you online or find, have you published your manifesto?

[00:25:01] Justin: Yeah. my manifesto is that Brand Voice Academy, brandvoiceacademy.com there’s the about page, there’s a link to the manifesto. so yeah, it’s brand voice Academy. com is the best place to find me right now. I’m currently going through a rebrand, but, eventually it’ll be everything over at justinblackman.

[00:25:19] Justin: com. for if you want to learn about me, but manifestos and all that, that’s over at Justin at, at brandvoiceacademy. com.

[00:25:26] Caitlin: Beautiful. Thanks so much for that. No, I’d loved, yeah, doing, brand voice visionary. It was one of the most fun times. And I actually spoke to Jill, a few weeks ago, which was really cool as well. Yeah, it was

[00:25:39] Justin: that makes me happy.

[00:25:42] Caitlin: no, thank you so much. You’ve definitely, enriched my copywriting, work. And I thank you very much for that.

[00:25:49] Justin: honoured by that compliment and you’ve done great things. So

[00:25:52] Caitlin: thanks so much. This has been so fun.

[00:25:55] Justin: thanks.

[00:25:55] Caitlin: Alright, that’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favour and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform and you’ll be the first to know as soon as a new episode drops.

[00:26:16] Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, ta ta for now.