What university doesn’t teach: rewards & challenges in psychology with Isabella Damiris

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

Caitlin: Now my guest today is Izzy. So Isabella Damiris is a clinical psychologist based in Adelaide

Caitlin: Who provides therapy to older adolescents and adults through both tele health. And face-to-face. With a particular interest in anxiety and trauma. her passion lies in empowering individuals to navigate challenges and live fulfilling lives. As their most authentic selves. That sounds fantastic.

Caitlin: All Right, thank you so much for joining me, Izzy. This is such a super special, episode, because we studied together in masters or honors as well. And so I’m very excited to welcome you to the podcast.

Isabella: Thank you for having me. I’m loving being able to connect with you, and I always love our chats, so I’m super excited.

Caitlin: Yeah, me too. I’m excited to see what we chat about. I’ve got so much to,ask you,

Caitlin: we studied together, we did honours together, and I don’t, I feel like that year was such a blur. I don’t remember a lot of it, but tell me what was like, what you can remember of it. Cause I don’t know what your experience was like on the whole.

Caitlin: Tell me a bit about your psych journey because you’ve just become a clinical psych, endorsed in the clinical psych.

Isabella: Yeah. Well, my journey is a little bit interesting in that when I, I’ll go back to the start with my undergrad, when I first chose to do a Bachelor of Psych, I, Really didn’t know that I wanted to be a psych at all. I’m a very logical person. And for me at the time, I didn’t know what I wanted to do.

Isabella: And so I just figured like, well, it sounds interesting. And also if I don’t like it, it’s not a waste. Like I thought it’s so easily, kind of like, it’s very easy to diversify after doing it. A bachelor of psych, like I thought I could do a master’s in teaching a master’s of business or something like that.

Isabella: So it’s sort of like hedging my bets of like, I might like this, but I might not like this. And I hate to waste time or waste money. So I’ll just do this and see if I like it. and actually after my first year, I, struggled a bit with my first year of psych. And I, I think I had a bit going on personally and it made it really difficult to study and like do my best, which was a little bit.

Isabella: challenging as a bit of a perfectionist. So then I took a year off because I was like, Oh, I don’t know if it’s for me. Like I’m not doing as well as I’d like to. And so I just took a year off and sort of spent some time, did a bit of travel and like focused on myself. And then once I was in a better head space, I thought I’d give it another go.

Isabella: And then when I went back, I just loved it. Like I was so, so into it. And I thought, God, this is so fascinating and I’m just learning so much and it’s so diverse, all the things I can learn about. So yeah, I just, I thought it was amazing. And then yeah, we met in honors, but I feel like we were literally just past each other so intermittently.

Isabella: And I guess that’s a good example of what honors kind of is. It’s so self directed and I feel as though you spend probably a lot less time with your colleagues or like peers because everyone’s working on their thesis and so you’re literally just grinding, like just

Caitlin: Yeah. It was, yeah, it was ridiculous. Ridiculous. Wasn’t it? But yeah, you’re so right. Like you’d kind of pass each other and it wasn’t. that same, yeah, maybe I didn’t really ever have that sense of like, camaraderie because I did mine all like bit by bit, but that’s interesting. I, didn’t think I realized that you did it and then you took a bit of a time off, but it’s interesting how that space allowed you to come back and see things a bit differently, or you were just in a different mind space that you enjoyed it.

Isabella: Yeah, and I’m so glad that I did because I think I felt really nervous to take a break. I think I had at the time this idea of like, oh, you have to just keep studying. Like if you stop, you’ll lose momentum. And if you start earning better money because you’re working more, like, it’ll be hard to give it up and go back.

Isabella: So I was a little bit worried to do it, but I’m so glad that I did because ultimately, like I would have been a far worse student and a far unhappier version of myself, which is ultimately like the most important thing. And yeah, so it’s just a great example of listening to your intuition and sometimes it’s a bit daunting following what you think is right if you’re not sure if it’s going to be the right thing, but I guess everything works out in the end, or at least in my situation it did.

Caitlin: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, because we do live in I don’t know if it’s like a cultural thing or a societal thing, but yeah, it’s like if you take time off, it’s thought of as maybe a negative thing or like even the, I’ve been thinking about this recently about the idea of giving up and how that equates with failure, but.

Caitlin: Like not necessarily, cause you might be getting something better or like in your case, like having that bit of space, allowed you to move on to better things. And so I think it’s a really interesting idea and a nice thing to, reflect on or talk about definitely. And tell me what do you, there’s so many different like answers to this question, but what do you love the most about psych?

Isabella: Oh my gosh, where do I begin? Like, I’m super passionate about psych. Obviously, you know that about me. I think that as I said before, like being someone who’s super curious and like fascinated by people, it’s really just the perfect job for me. Cause you meet all kinds of people from all different walks of life with such unique experiences.

Isabella: And for me, that’s just so enjoyable. Really like it fulfills my own needs in that way

Caitlin: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Isabella: you know, and not boring, which I love. And I think just because I’m actually like a really nonjudgmental person, it sort of creates a really safe space where people can just talk about anything and everything.

Isabella: And it’s very reciprocal because they’re loving that they can talk about whatever and I’m just there for it. And I’m loving it because I’m, I’m fascinated. I’m interested in it. you know, Yeah, so I think it’s just great. And I think also like I love learning. I’ve always been a learner and I’d love to be a learner for the rest of my life.

Isabella: Like there’s so much to learn in psych. It’s basically never ending, which can also be daunting at times because it’s

Caitlin: yeah, it really is.

Isabella: like all the things you don’t know versus the things you do know. And despite putting in so many hours, it still doesn’t shift. Much?

Caitlin: exactly.

Isabella: ending?

Caitlin: It’s so true. And like, it just doesn’t end and it’s like that whole, you know, Dunning Kruger thing, like the more you know, the more you realize you don’t know, and it’s like never ending imposter syndrome or like self doubt or something. But I feel like you strike me as someone who would

Caitlin: Experience imposter syndrome. I remember like you, you’ve always someone that’s very, I don’t know what you would call it, you’re very like logical, very practical, You get things done and I feel like, I don’t know, there’s something about it there that I feel like you wouldn’t really struggle a lot from imposter syndrome.

Isabella: I definitely have like, but I would argue that psychs experience like massive imposter syndrome in my experience, like talking to my colleagues and friends, like it’s just, it’s huge. Like it’s something that we all experience at times. So maybe comparatively, I, I might experience a bit less of that. I don’t know exactly what that is.

Isabella: I think that Hmm, let me think about that. Why is that? I think that having the understanding that we don’t have to be perfect is really important and like being able to lean into The imperfection or the mistakes or the silliness or the humanness of us really allows you to not feel as pressured by not being enough or not being good enough, if that makes sense.

Caitlin: Yeah, definitely a very wise realization to have, but not necessarily just like cognitively know that, but to like fully understand that and feel that and believe that I think it’s such an important thing. To have that, and it’s something that I for sure am starting to like be able to listen to or to look at, which is something I’ve always realized, be like, Oh yeah, we’re human.

Caitlin: We’re allowed to make mistakes, but I feel like I’ve been like, Oh, but I’m not allowed

Isabella: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I know exactly what you mean. You’re like, Oh yeah, anyone else can do anything and I’ll see their point of view. It’s fine. But then me, no, no, never.

Caitlin: you know, that’s what I’m meant to, yeah, know everything or be able to, oh my gosh, like so many times I’ve come to a supervision and talk to my supervisor about something. And I’ve come to the realization or she’s been like, Caitlin, you can’t change someone’s whole view in a few sessions.

Caitlin: it’s not, how it works.

Isabella: It’s not possible. Yeah,

Caitlin: yeah. And I, for some reason have this. Yeah, it’s something there about, the whole, pressure, but I’ve definitely got a bit better with that, with, the human element. And that’s, I think sometimes what makes people enjoy therapy is seeing their therapist as a human.

Caitlin: Okay.

Isabella: absolutely. I completely agree with that a hundred percent. I think as well, that’s what you just said that makes me realize how important to have a great supervisor is as well. Like somewhere, someone who you can be yourself and actually say, Oh, I’m really struggling with this or like, I don’t know what I’m doing or I said the wrong thing and to not feel judged or critiqued by that and just for them to, okay, well, yeah.

Isabella: That happens sometimes and maybe you could try this and it just is such a great example of like, oh, actually, yeah, it’s okay. Like this is part of the experience. And, and also I think the thing is if we’re so scared to take chances, cause we so desiring of being perfect, it actually ends up limiting our growth.

Isabella: I guess personally, but also professionally, because you don’t take risks with new things. And

Caitlin: Yes. Exactly.

Isabella: anything new, it’s a risk, right? Because you’re like, Oh, what if it doesn’t work? Or they see through me that I don’t know what I’m doing or something like that.

Caitlin: for sure. It’s such, yeah, exactly. Like, it is a risk and it’s like that courage you’ve got to take to have like the leap into a space you like are unknown and it could, yeah, like completely flop or it could be like incredible and be like the thing that your patient needs to hear or something like that.

Isabella: absolutely.

Caitlin: like if you get it wrong and this is something that I’ve allowed myself to start. Celebrating when I say something and it’s not right. And then my patients, if they can correct me, like you used to be like, Oh shit, I’m a terrible therapist for not getting it right. But now I’m like, how amazing that like they’re able to trust me enough to say, no, that’s not right.

Caitlin: But then. Also, to let them have that self discovery and maybe that saying, whatever I said, it’s a spark, something, and then like, it might not be correct, but it’s allowed them to at least wonder. Hmm.

Isabella: it’s like we’re uncertain, so we’ve said, oh, is it, maybe it’s like this, or something like that, and then, in them hearing us say it this way, they go, oh, it’s not that. And so when they say, Oh, no, it’s not that it’s this, it’s like extra confirmation for them, how they really feel about the situation or what they’re really thinking.

Isabella: And so great for the relationship that you can go, Oh, like, thank you. Thank you for correcting me on that. Like, I, I feel like I understand it so much better. I think that’s so cool.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, that’s interesting, like the whole relationship thing, what you’re saying about supervision and that’s been one of the most transformational things I think for me is yeah, like having therapy, but then also, having a supervisor who, I can bring, any other shit that I’ve told my supervisor, like, and yeah, she’s just like, I could, literally tell her anything and it would be fine, but I have had, I don’t have to talk about it, but, I definitely have some experiences of supervision as supervise, with supervisors that have been quite harmful for me.

Caitlin: And I don’t think it wasn’t until I have my current supervisor, which allowed myself to even look at or acknowledge about how harmful some of the things were for me. And not to say that the supervision was bad or anything, but I think it’s really important, like therapists, it’s important to have a therapist that maybe I can sit with you and maybe acknowledge your temperament or something like that.

Isabella: Oh, absolutely. I mean, it’s a relationship, right? Like and it does come down to fit. Like you have to fit your supervisor and they have to fit and work with you. So I think that’s so true and not just, Yeah, accepting if you are having a super supervisory relationship that’s not working or you’re not feeling safe to be honest and transparent and yourself to be like, okay, well, that doesn’t necessarily mean there’s anything wrong with them doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with me.

Isabella: Perhaps we’re not the right fit for one another because it’s essential, isn’t it? To find someone who you can be yourself with and gets you.

Caitlin: Again, yeah, exactly. I get you. And yeah, it doesn’t, comes back to that, non judgmental thing, like being able to say anything. we, like psychologists always bang on about that, but I think a lot of people don’t necessarily have that, if that makes sense, and I’m not, I don’t want to shit talk, people, but I don’t know, it’s just something I’ve noticed recently, maybe I’ll edit that part out, but it’s just, yeah, I

Isabella: No, I think like, that’s absolutely true though. And we can see it because we work, like, yeah, maybe edit this out, but you know, we can see it with our clients because they’re, you know, we just get so much data on the way people work and the way people, and it is, there’s so much judgment towards other people and it’s just the way we are, right?

Isabella: We’re like, we’re social beings and from like a sociological perspective, there’s thoughts on that. Yeah. And like. You know, why we do the way and yeah, like social psychology, like why we do that. There’s so much to it. So I think it does take a really unique disposition to be able to just. Just sit with something, just be curious, like, Hmm, that’s interesting.

Isabella: Even though it’s different to me, rather than being like, Oh, the different is wrong or weird. Being like, Oh, it’s different. That’s interesting.

Caitlin: It’s like the antidote to that is like, yeah, we might be judgmental, cause we’re, human beings who may have to make judgments. It’s like how our brain is, but the antidote to that is like the curiosity, like, oh wow, that’s, yeah, that’s interesting. say more about that rather than like recoiling.

Isabella: Yes. Yes. Yeah. I don’t want to

Caitlin: I don’t want to, it sounds exactly like, oh dear. We’ve covered a little bit of this I think already, just naturally. But how has your clinical practice evolved So like when we were doing our, seeing our first patients in clinic and like being down in the clinic and. Printing off our little worksheets nervously.

Isabella: Literally. Oh my

Caitlin: now? Because you have your own business, which is very cool.

Isabella: Yes. Yes, a lot, like a lot, It sort of ties back to what you were saying before about imposter syndrome, and I think I want to say this in case there’s any, psych students listening to it, that the first time I saw my first client, I don’t know that she was aware of it, but I was literally shaking.

Isabella: You know what I mean? Like I, I was so physically nervous and I had no real reason to be other than the fact that it’s something new and like it’s so important and you’ve put so much work into being here and you want to be good at what you’re doing but it’s so nerve wracking at first because you’ve literally never done it before.

Isabella: Even though you’ve talked to like tens of thousands of people in your life, it just feels different. So, I would say when I first started out, I had a lot more nerves. Then I do now because it’s just new. And it’s like remembering that the more you do something, the easier it gets to the point where it’s not something that’s nerve wracking at all anymore.

Isabella: and at the time it’s very hard to imagine that as a possibility. He’s like, Oh my God, it’s going to be like, what if it’s like this forever? Like, you know, and I’m always nervous. I can’t live my life like this every day, but then just over time, like it’s just not nerve wracking anymore. Like it’s just natural and it comes easily and it’s comfortable and it’s fun.

Isabella: Tricky and all other feelings. So I think that’s definitely something that’s evolved naturally, which makes sense. another thing would be, when I first started, I probably was very manualized like in my treatment and that also comes from nerves, right? Cause you’re not sure exactly what

Caitlin: containing to have a thing structure.

Isabella: Yeah. To be like, okay, so session one, I’ll do this in session two, I’ll do this and so on and so forth. So, I think that was fine at the time because it, as you said, it was very containing and allowed me to learn like a lot of the basic, skills and, sort of like counseling skills and also like, A lot of CBT, a lot of CBT as well.

Isabella: so I probably may be like a little bit more rigid at the time versus now, like I’m definitely more eclectic. Like I draw from lots of different therapeutic interventions, picking and choosing. is what’s appropriate and recognizing that even though some of them have very different theoretical backgrounds or frameworks, they can work in cohesion with one another.

Isabella: so I think that’s a massive difference. what else?yeah, I mean, like I do a lot of schema therapy now. Like that’s one of my major passions. I’m super into it, as you know.

Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. But say more about that and about schema therapy and like how, what are you, draws you to it and all of that.

Isabella: Yeah. So a bit of like the background on schema therapy was developed by Jeffrey Young, sort of in response to his observations that a lot of people at the time, who had been doing a lot of, CBT or had done quite a bit of CBT on and off sort of coming back, still experiencing symptoms. So it’s sort of like these clients who are experiencing like persistent, recurrent mental health difficulties, despite having undergone like quite a bit of treatment.

Isabella: And so he basically evaluated them and sort of evaluated CBT a little bit of like, Oh, what’s missing here? Like, why are some people getting better and sort of thriving after treatment and others sort of continue to experience these difficulties. And he sort of like recognized that maybe one of the things that’s lacking in CBT is the fact that it’s very present focused, you know, and, doesn’t draw much influence from the past.

Isabella: So schema therapy is super eclectic. Like it brings a lot of different sort of like parts from different. therapies, like a bit of psychodynamic stuff, a bit of like gestalt stuff, a bit of CBT stuff, parts work, like heaps of different things. So I think what I like about it the most is that it’s It’s present focus, but it’s also past focus.

Isabella: So that really resonates well with me. Whereas sometimes when I’m just doing very present focused work, I feel as though I’m missing like a piece of the puzzle, like the past, like

Caitlin: Yeah. It’s something like a key to it, right? Yeah, exactly. Like to make sense of, but yeah, but schema therapy is very cool. I remember when we were doing our lectures and things and I was. I think a lot of people had some really eye opening moments from it, even just filling out that, like, young questionnaire.

Caitlin: I think people were like, oh wow, I am a perfectionist, or that kind

Isabella: Yeah. Like we’re all perfectionists. We all have unrelenting standards.

Caitlin: but maybe, and, and that’s where maybe where the judgey thing comes in, which is like, because that’s the other side of unrelenting standards, isn’t it? Like, the critical element, isn’t it? Or maybe I’m just making shit up,

Isabella: Well, well, I think what you’re touching on, like people with unrelenting standards often have like a very strong, demanding parent mode, just sort of like that voice in our head or the part of ourselves. That’s very, very demanding and puts a lot of pressure on ourselves.so I don’t know how exactly how that relates to like judgment of others, but it certainly relates to judgment of ourselves.

Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah. I was just, maybe I’m, I probably made it up, I don’t know,

Isabella: So many things in our head.

Caitlin: there’s so many things that I know, but, uh, yeah, schema therapy is, it’s cool. And a lot of people that we studied with have gone into schema therapy, haven’t they?

Isabella: I feel super grateful. We had a lecturer who was really into it and he, went really out of his way. Like I think even outside of class times, he hosted like a half day or maybe even a full day session on like, Schema therapy one on one and like put so much effort into making the resources and having us do experiential techniques on each other.

Isabella: And it just really, it’s like he planted a seed and then instead of just letting it sit there and allowing us to have to sort of take that next step and do it all on our own, which would have been really hard at that time, because you’re still so fresh, he really put the effort into like watering it and nourishing, I guess, that, metaphorical garden.

Isabella: yeah. And to know now that so many of our, cohort like now does a lot of schema therapy, which I think is just amazing. It shows the influence of lecturers and teachers.

Caitlin: That’s so true. I hadn’t thought about that because I’m in terms of like the connection there with yeah, like our lecturer who did. That probably cause I, I liked it, but it wasn’t really something that I was like, yes, I’m definitely going to do this thing. But yeah, that makes so much sense. But it was just a trigger to memory then when we were doing that, that workshop.

Caitlin: And I remember you were imagery re scripting me, remember? And

Isabella: I do. I do. Oh my gosh.

Caitlin: bursts into

Isabella: Heavy.

Caitlin: like, Sobbing in places that like,

Isabella: That’s so it though, isn’t it? Like that’s the whole point. And it’s, it’s intense because. Yeah, what a great example, like, because That’s like so much of Mars is you’re just doing things on each other like all the time so many role plays so many practicing on each other because we’re just desperate to practice. And prior to that like everything would have been very logical. Right, like very not emotional like for the most part I would say you’re sort of just reflecting on your thoughts and a little bit on your feelings and stuff like that but very, you know, cognitive work and then, you know, We just like, okay, let’s, let’s try this.

Isabella: And it’s probably really down to him a lot that he gave us the confidence to do that. He’s like, yeah, so this is how you do it. This is step one. This is step to do it. And we’re just like, okay. And so we just do it. And then we’re like, oh my God, I’m like, just connected with this. really significant childhood thing that happened and I feel all these things now and like, oh, so I thank you for being vulnerable in that time.

Isabella: Like allowed me, because it did allow me an opportunity to learn. With that, like had you been sort of like, I guess in like a detached protector mode or like really not connected with your feelings, it would have been not the same. So that really comes down to your vulnerability there and so nice for our friendship as well to be able to connect on that way.

Caitlin: I felt, very comfy with you, which I think speaks to, like how you’re, you are as a therapist, but yeah, I definitely do have a detached protective mode, like, yeah, for sure. That’s a big, big thing. Yeah. It’s,

Isabella: I wonder if, at times that can be helpful in our work even. Yeah. Maybe. To sometimes be able to detach a little bit from stuff if something’s Really, really heavy or really big to be able to detach from it just a little bit in like a adaptive way, I suppose, until it’s safe and like appropriate to deal with it.

Caitlin: deal with it. Yeah. Rather than,having it, consume you so much and be, unstable for you. Because I think a lot of the time, yeah, with what I’ve noticed is, like, I need to feel comfortable in session. I need to be, like, contained as well, like, and so I think there are multiple things that, help with that.

Caitlin: I was just, when you were talking about, earlier about when you’re first through your first session and you were shaking and nervous and all of

Isabella: Mm hmm.

Caitlin: think about like every time, even still, when I do an intake with a new person, I’m so anxious and I have to have my notebook there.

Caitlin: I don’t ever really write anything down cause I don’t really write notes ever, but it’s just there for me really just like hold on to it

Isabella: It’s a little safety behavior. Mm.

Caitlin: I have, but I think before I. maybe not like in certain things I probably would have thought like, Oh, I should be able to push through or like, I shouldn’t have to feel comfortable in a certain amount of area.

Caitlin: Or even like with my chair and things like that, I’ve realized like how important it is to be comfy,

Isabella: Yes. Yeah.

Caitlin: which isn’t something I necessarily realized how important that was. And it’s like one of the key things I’ve learned.

Isabella: hmm.

Caitlin: Which seems like such a silly thing, like, you want to be comfortable, it’s like, of course, but

Isabella: Yeah.

Caitlin: just speaks to my own, like, self sacrificing parts, maybe, I don’t know.

Isabella: Yeah. No, absolutely. I think that’s just it. Like, we’re all just learning, aren’t we? Learning what works for us, what doesn’t work for us. And the worst thing you can do is get repeated information given to you. Like, for example, I’m not comfortable with this presentation or this age demographic or this something or this room or this lighting or something like that.

Isabella: And it’s not comfortable for me. I’m not doing my best work. And then just to ignore it. And it’s all well. It just is what it is, like, no, that’s us learning, what we need and what makes us do our best job. Like, we have to attune to that and actually act on that, even if it means buying a super expensive chair.

Caitlin: Yes, that’s it. It

Isabella: the tax department, like, yeah, it was absolutely essential.

Caitlin: was absolutely necessary. They’re like, so

Isabella: like, what? It’s 40, 000.

Caitlin: Yeah, it was custom made, but yeah, like apparently Freud had, that was the thing. He had a custom chair made for him and it, because my supervisor was telling me this recently is because he had, he wanted to be able to read in his chair, like with his legs over the, seat thing and like lie in this really weird position.

Caitlin: And he wanted to be comfortable doing that. And I don’t know, maybe he did that when like people were re associating, I don’t know, but yeah, that was like a thing. And so it kind of. Goes back to, him as well about that element of being comfy as well, which I thought was like a fascinating.

Isabella: Comfy is important

Caitlin: It is,

Isabella: every area of

Caitlin: you know, yeah, it was just, I was just thinking that about like something I also had to modify From masters was like learning that I can wear anything I want. And like, it’s more important about me being comfy

Isabella: Yes.

Caitlin: and feeling Which is, yeah. Oh,

Isabella: think that’s an interesting one. Like we’ve spoken about that a lot, just The, how do I explain it? Like the somewhat self imposed, somewhat profession, uh, imposed idea of having to be a certain person or like having to be a certain type of person. like very, I don’t know if you’d agree with this, but like, how do I describe that? Like, very, yeah, I suppose like detached and a bit rigid and like very blank slate.

Isabella: Yeah. In terms of like, yeah, you like your affect and the way you sit, the way you speak, the way you dress kind of having to be, A little bit nothing so that way there’s so much space for the client to be anything they want to be. and even now, I, I don’t know that I struggle with that as nowhere near as much as I did before, because like, I am so much more comfortable these days than I was when I first started out.

Isabella: And like, I talk like myself and I swear in session I think it is an interesting conversation about like, Like there’s so many, so much importance to like professional boundaries and like, that’s really like drilled into you around the importance of ethics, which is of course super important.

Isabella: But like, I think sometimes it makes us feel scared to just be ourselves sometimes, even when there’s no harm that can be caused from that.

Caitlin: Yeah. so true. Like, but somehow we’ve equated, Being and nothing, you’ve got to be like, yeah. Strip away all of your identity for some reason to, I don’t know. Yeah. Be an ethical person that we’ve yeah. Somehow that’s. Being conflated, which is a curious thing. Cause yeah, we’re allowed to be human.

Caitlin: That’s my big thing. Cause I think I was for sure in masters, particularly I always felt like I didn’t fit in and I think that’s just like a general theme of my life, but it really got flared up in masters and like, yeah, having to try and be this psychologist image that was

Isabella: Yes.

Caitlin: taught to

Isabella: Serious all the time and analyzing all the time and yeah, absolutely.

Caitlin: Having to like hold so much back in, which of course we do have to hold things in, but I wonder sometimes, that’s sometimes at the detriment of the patient, I think, not showing our humanity.

Isabella: And the relationship because at the end of the day, like with what we know from the research, like most, therapeutic outcomes come from the relationship, you know, the patient or client psychologist or counselor, whatever relationship. So, yeah. It’s reciprocal, and it goes both ways.

Isabella: Like, if we’re not being our authentic self with limits, obviously, and boundaries, obviously, I feel like that’s a barrier to actually creating this really, genuine relationship, which is super important. You need

Caitlin: sure. Absolutely.

Isabella: little

Caitlin: Yeah. It is. So,

Isabella: Well,

Caitlin: so true. About that. Sorry, I’m a bit more cold speaking of, Yeah, no, it’s an interesting, like, conversation I could talk about, that I’m just like mindful of not like shitting. I’m like, this isn’t supervision. I can’t like shit talk, which is

Isabella: can talk about it, you can cut it out if you want.

Caitlin: yeah, no, it’s all right.

Caitlin: Like, it’s just interesting when you’re talking about like supervision and like the stuff that I’ve, it’s been really helpful in supervision is just like be able to lay it all out. And I, yeah. They told me this and my supervisor’s what the fuck, like, it’s ridiculous. Like, and that’s been so helpful for me.

Isabella: yeah.

Caitlin: yeah, but yeah, that’s just me having a little tantrum, I think.

Isabella: But like, honestly, like not to go in the thing, but between us, like, I still struggle with that sometimes of knowing where the line is, cause I’m getting so much more comfortable in like just being myself. I’m like, I swear. And I’m just me in a lot of ways. And then sometimes when I do it too much, I’m like, Oh, am I being too much?

Isabella: And I’m like, I don’t think so. Like, I don’t think so. Like, I just am. Myself. Like I can’t not be myself. You know what I mean? It’s distracting to not be myself. It’s another thing I’m doing that actually takes you further away from what’s going on in the room.

Caitlin: so true. Yeah, exactly. Like having to, it’s another thing you’ve got to attend to like, Oh, am I like being a good therapist and what does a good therapist do? And like, Oh, I shouldn’t be sitting like this. Like I,

Isabella: Yes.

Caitlin: all right.

Caitlin: I think we’ve talked a little bit about this, but what, if anything, is there that you wish you knew?

Caitlin: Before starting your psych journey or even masters.

Isabella: Ooh. Okay. I would say that it gets easier. Yeah. Like, I think that to become a psychologist is like a really long journey, really difficult, very challenging, and like, really tests you a lot of the time. and I think that when you finally get the opportunity to do the clinical work, or at least in my experience, things start to slot into place.

Isabella: And it really does feel like in my experience, it was all worth it, even though, yeah, really challenging at times to go through all those years of study and like the competitive nature of it and like having to push yourself so hard and like make sacrifices in a lot of ways as well. So for me, I wish. It would have been good to know at that time if I could look back and talk to my younger self, like, oh, it’s going to happen for you.

Isabella: So just keep going. And also then it will get easier. Like, It’s just such a steep learning curve. Once you start doing the clinical work, that sometimes it feels a bit like, Oh, will this get easier? But it does. And the more you do it, the easier it gets, the more confident you get, the more fun you can have, the more you learn about yourself.

Isabella: Like, it’s just amazing. I’m like a massive advocate for work as working as a psychologist. Cause I love it so much. and I think as well to. Remember that really everyone does experience imposter syndrome and that if you are experiencing imposter syndrome, you’re a thousand percent, not alone in that.

Caitlin: Like I can almost, I can guarantee you anecdotally from all the people I’ve ever known who are psychs that they’ve experienced imposter syndrome and still do at times. So it’s kind of inevitable. So it’s just getting used to that and learning how to overcome that, learning how to cope with it. I like that. That it does get easier in a way. And like the, yeah, the imposter syndrome for sure. I think, yeah, it’s an interesting like one with the imposter syndrome, but do you think There’s a link with perfectionism, isn’t there?

Isabella: Like imposter syndrome. Or is perfectionism a type of imposter syndrome? I think they’re sort of like very similar constructs. Like, I think if you’re perfectionistic, you’re probably more likely to experience imposter syndrome.I don’t know if they’re exactly the same thing, but I think that’s probably pretty fair to say that they would be pretty closely related.

Caitlin: Oh, but like what you said.

Isabella:

Caitlin: When you were talking about like the, there’s so much self discovery, which I think is a big, big thing, which I don’t think I ever realized I was signing

Isabella: Mmm, yes. Oh my gosh, absolutely. You’re just constantly being confronted with stuff. Like your own stuff. Dealing with other people’s stuff. How their stuff triggers your stuff. Things that you don’t know, like particularly if you are very perfectionistic and like have always done really well academically or in school.

Isabella: various pursuits, like to not be perfect and to not know everything can be super confronting at times, but it’s just inevitable. Like that’s part of it. That’s really what you’re signing up for. And it really is just getting, trying to get super comfortable with that. Like getting super comfortable with feedback as well.

Isabella: Learning to take feedback and hopefully constructive feedback, but try not to take it personally and go, Oh, like, Yeah. I hadn’t thought of that. Like that’s a great way. Can I try and implement that? And obviously having the right people talking to you about that makes that a lot easier because of the way they say it and having a relationship with them.

Isabella: But I think that’s super important as well.

Caitlin: It’s just constant feedback, isn’t

Isabella: It is, uh, it’s a super unique experience. Like. I’m trying to think of my life prior to that. I don’t know that I ever experienced such amounts of feedback in such a massive amount, really. Like, in school you get your report cards intermittently, and then at work, I mean I worked in hospitality before I was a psychologist, so like, I never had a A meeting, like I never had a performance review ever really so and then you’re just here and you’re just always in super, like getting supervision all the time when you’re learning and all bits of feedback and then asking your clients for feedback as well.

Isabella: I think that’s a huge thing. Getting feedback from clients is super important and, implementing things once you recognize, Oh, this is something I could improve upon. And then. Just keeping things moving. If you can, like, if you get, try not to get stuck on something, if it’s really challenging, like, not like in a suppressive way of like, oh, let’s just get over it.

Isabella: But like, yeah, have supervision, talk to your psychologist about it and work out like, what’s, what’s that about? Like, why did that trigger me so much? And what’s going on there and work out a way to. Yeah. heal your inner child if that’s what it is, or talk to yourself kinder if that’s what you need, or whatever it is.

Caitlin: Yeah. Recognize that it does affect us and that’s so normal that it affects us as well.

Isabella: Yeah, literally.

Isabella: good way though, like it’s a beautiful thing, the job that we have. I think, oh before we move on, I just want to say, as well, how important it is to have a community. Like, I think that To have a community outside of psych is really important, like whether it’s your family or friends or people who know you other than like Isabella the psychologist, because that keeps you really grounded and like really allows you to maintain a version of yourself that isn’t completely absorbed in the, in the work, which I think is really important, but also having a community.

Isabella: Who are like psychs or mental health or allied health or because it’s just so amazing to be able to call someone up like yourself or, you know, the friends that we share and say, Oh, I had a really hard day or this is going on or just those little bits of peer consultation and getting support from one another is so important, particularly when you’re learning, but also afterwards, like I,am so grateful for that.

Isabella: And I think that had, we were so lucky we had such a, I felt we had such a close cohort. with really deep genuine relationships and that’s obviously not a given and I feel so grateful for that because like it’s such it’s such a vulnerable position to be in and you’re all learning so much and triggered by things and you know like stress to the max and all those things and then to have people to be able to sort of connect with and understand what you’re going through is just so so important in my opinion.

Caitlin: I agree with that so much. It’s just like having people around that. Like get it as well, like particularly this is something a bit different about now, like psych and being a health professional anyway, like having good ethics and like having to be professional as well. It’s, and so people like get it and yeah, you’re right.

Caitlin: We did have, we were so lucky, weren’t we? Like our group of people, we all were so close and yeah, it was a really nice thing to have, wasn’t it?

Isabella: Yeah, I agree.

Caitlin: it was really good. And it just made me like think also of, Like, uh, my master’s research about like how it was, you know, like in the little groups and I was probably really lucky.

Caitlin: It was probably because of the group that we had and like friendship with everyone that I probably could do my research. Like everyone was so busy, but they, you all like dedicated like two hours a week, which is a huge amount of time, like in masters to do my like research project, which I like,

Isabella: We loved it. It was such a, oh, such a beautiful experience. It was so nice.

Caitlin: I’m very grateful for that. but in that note, how has your non clinical and non psych stuff, impacted your work?

Isabella: I feel that I’m probably a bit less creative than you. Like I know you’ve got all your little side hustles and things like that going on that have like not a lot to do with psych, which I think is just so amazing, so cool. So I don’t know that I’m exactly the same as you in that way, but I think that in general, having a really well rounded life outside of work, like work or just any work is.

Isabella: Like absolutely essential. And I think that if you can find things that are good for your stress relief, like for me, for example, I do pottery and I’ve just started sewing, actually. I’m terrible, but I’m learning.

Caitlin: Yeah. So it’s a hard, that’s so awesome.

Isabella: but it’s, that’s practical. So you look at the practicality coming in and me, I’m like, well, then I can hand my clothes, but, save money on alterations.

Isabella: But yeah, I think that having those things that you do. Outside of work that have nothing to do with work is super important because it meant like it manages your stress and it really allows you to separate yourself from the profession. Like, I think that understanding it’s kind of tricky because becoming a psych takes so much of your time, energy, thought, everything that you can sometimes find yourself like really enmeshed with it.

Isabella: and I actually don’t know that that helps necessarily because like we are people and also, you know, In the best case scenario, we hopefully have a long life ahead of us and a long career ahead of us. And I don’t know that it’s sustainable if, if that’s your everything and you just go home and do more work or do more study or do more because it’s never ending.

Isabella: So you could do that for the rest of your life and still not know everything and still not be quote unquote like the best. So I think that it’s really important to tend to your own. Emotional needs and yeah, if it’s creative needs and relationships so that that way you’re your best self as well because then you’ll turn up as the best psychologist that you can be.

Caitlin: Yeah, exactly. And still be able to have, I think I love what you said about like separated, having like an outside of psychology or outside of psychologists and being able to be your trueHuman self, and it probably even speaks to something like you were saying at the start about when you were in undergrad and had to take, you were like, not liking it, but then you had to take that year off.

Caitlin: And it sounded like you had a beautiful time, like discovering a little bit about yourself and having that space. I think that speaks to, huge amount of like the importance of that. Having an idea about who you are outside of psychology, which is a bit of a scary thing, for some, like, that we don’t, that all of us have a lot out of it.

Caitlin: which I’m talking too much about myself, but, Yeah. That was the thing that I realized was like, shit, I don’t have anything outside of psychology. I’m like, I’m a psychologist. And like, what else am I,

Isabella: Yeah.

Caitlin: confronting thing. It’s like,

Isabella: Yeah.

Caitlin: ideal. You know what I mean? Because we are. We’re more than that. Like, it’s a really big part of us. Can’t deny that, obviously. Like, when you put that amount of time into something and you care so deeply about it, of course it becomes a really strong part of you. But we had a full life beforehand.

Caitlin: yeah,

Isabella: it feels weird to completely discard that or like stop evolving that non psychologist version of ourselves. Like, for me, it doesn’t really make sense. because at the same time, like, Oh, it’s going to sound super philosophical, but like, also nothing’s guaranteed in life. Like, this is still our life to live.

Isabella: I don’t know if non psychs would understand this. It might seem a bit like big.but because we do put so much into it sometimes, like you can just become completely absorbed in it. And what is that question you asked yourself? It’s like a little bit of an act based kind of question. Like, if you died, what would you want people to say about you at your funeral?

Isabella: Or like, if you were dying, how would you look back on your life? Then I feel like I’d feel certainly super grateful for my. profession and for my career and very fulfilled in it, but at the same time, if I didn’t have relationships outside of it and hobbies outside of it and memories outside of it and all these other really important things, I don’t know that that would be enough while it’s still being super happy and fulfilling as well.

Isabella: It’s like both things being true at the same time.

Caitlin: exactly like, there’s more out there and more to life than work. And not to say, I think enjoying work is super, super important. I find that’s something thatI really, believe, but yeah, having stuff outside of. That as well. And like, what type of life do you want to have and lead? And it’s such important questions to, to think about, but it can be quite confronting and like, there’s a bit of grief there if you’re realizing for the first time, like, I don’t have a lot of outside of what I do in my work.

Caitlin: It’s quite hard to, to realize that. And like, there is that bit of uncomfortable feeling, like maybe a bit of mourning or going to process that a bit.

Isabella: Yes.

Caitlin: think once you get to the other side and like you can do other things, you just realize how full and big your life is like opens up worlds, but I think

Isabella: I love it. It does. It’s what I said before. I’m like, I’m getting a little bit for the soft guy. I don’t know if it’s that deep, but it does feel deep for me. I don’t know. It’s my lived experience. That’s all I can say. It’s hectic. Like honestly, Mars is like the whole The whole journey can be really intense and then naturally you can really easily transition into just being super like a workaholic because you’re just conditioned to do it because you’re so used to being busy and so used to learning all the time and using all your spare time to upskill.

Isabella: And so it’s actually really easy to make that kind of a transition if you don’t have other stuff to occupy your time with, especially if you’re super passionate and you love it. It can feel like, oh, well why won’t I just keep learning and keep doing more and more and more and more and more, which is obviously important.

Caitlin: And we have our CPD requirements and peer consultation requirements and all that stuff as well. So we’ll always be learning. That’s a guarantee as long as you wanna have your registration. But there can be other things outside of that as well, which just as much like nourish us. I think it’s an important thing. Oh, I’ve loved our, um, conversation it’s so nice to connect with you like this. but I was curious, what do you hope that people take away from listening to this Convo?

Isabella: I hope that people take away that studying psych is a marathon, not a sprint, and taking care of yourself and having an identity outside of it is extremely important, and that It’s also okay if your journey takes a different turn for whatever reason that it usually works out in the end, at least in my experience, and that if you are interested in psych and you feel it will be a good career or profession for you to give it a go, because it honestly is like One of the most fulfilling, meaningful and great parts of my life. So, I think that the world can really benefit from amazing, really passionate psychologists.

Isabella: And yeah, I just am such an advocate for the career and for the profession.

Caitlin: Oh, that’s so nice. I think that’s an important message. because sometimes, It can be like the hard stuff can get be feel so hard and so heavy. And so I think it even just that in itself, it’s so important to realize like what you like about it and to have people like you, who are such advocates for the profession, is a great thing.

Caitlin: It’s a gift that you have,

Isabella: And also finding balance. Cause like, honestly, I noticed that if I work too much, like if I work crazy hours and as we said, like lose touch with the other things important in my life, like my satisfaction goes down as well. So I think that’s the thing as well as finding the right balance that allows you to be, yeah, your best version of self and still feel really happy at work.

Caitlin: Yeah. I think that you can, yeah, find out whatever that balance is for sure.

Caitlin: All right now, we’ve come to that part of the interview. Which is, the rapid fire questions.

Caitlin: So, tell me, what is the most boring fact about you, Izzy?

Isabella: The most boring fact about me? Let me think.okay, I feel like this is an interesting one. Bit, bit weird, but not, but pretty boring as well. So it might be right. I’m eating any food that has like two components to it. For example, like pizza where you’ve got like the crust and then you’ve got like the topping bit or like a sandwich where you’ve got the crust and then you’ve got like the filling bit or anything like that, where there’s like two major components instead of eating it like for pizza front to back or with the sandwich. Filling to crust. I eat it bit by bit, kind of like I’ll take a bite of the crust, bite of the topping, bite of the crust, bite of the topping and something like that. So I, with anything where there’s like different components where they had different like textures or parts of it, I like to get a bit of everything in every bite.

Isabella: Love that. mine’s, yeah, mine’s quite similar. I just, I don’t know why I thought it was funny. But yeah, mine’s just similar. I either have to eat the crust first, like a pizza or anything really. It’s, crust first and then, because I want to save the best bit for last.

Isabella: Yes.

Caitlin: Well, what’s up with you?

Caitlin: why do you do that? Like, now I’m going to, like, be psychoanalyzing this.

Isabella: Yeah, I think for me, it’s not like a part of it’s better and the other part’s worse, because I totally get that and I know a lot of people like that with food. It’s like, for most of them, I like it all and so I want to be getting all of it in every bite,

Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah.

Isabella: I’ll feel disappointed. Like if the, if the crust was left last meat, I’ll probably be like, oh, or if it was just the toppings at the end of it, oh, like I just want the whole thing all

Caitlin: want to enjoy it, call it.

Isabella: Yeah.

Caitlin: I love that.

Isabella: Yeah,

Caitlin: What is your favorite film and your favorite character?

Isabella: My favorite movie is Almost Famous, and my favorite character is, I can’t remember her name, but it’s the sister. I just love her spirit and her tenacity.

Caitlin: Oh, I don’t think I’ve seen that film before. I’ll have another one. I’ll have to add to my list. Um, but what about a concert that you’ll never forget?

Isabella: a concert that I’ll never forget would be when I saw Ed Sheeran when I was 17 in Brisbane and he was my favourite artist at the time and I cried.

Isabella: It moved me so much, it was such a special moment

Desktop Microphone (R�DE NT-USB+)-6: No way. 17. Yeah,That would have been very special for sure. He’s got some real catchy tunes. Honestly, when I, if I ever see a film clip of his, I’m like, can’t get the songs out of my head. So he’s doing something right.

Caitlin: what about an absurd thing that you love?

Isabella: and an absurd thing that I love. It’s not absurd to me, but I love salt and vinegar chips and I’ll eat them until my tongue burns. So for people who don’t love salt and vinegar chips or eat chips in a normal way, that might seem a bit absurd, but it’s pretty normal for me.

Caitlin: Oh, my God. Yes. The salt and vinegar, chippies. That’s a classic Izzy. But how can people get in contact with you? Cause you’ve been blogging lately. Haven’t you?

Isabella: people can find me at my website. Www dot Bella, B-E-L-L-A, Vida, VIDA psychology.com au, which stands for Beautiful Life Psychology.

Isabella: And yeah, I’ve got a blog on there where I just write about topics that I’m really passionate about. I work mostly with people experiencing anxiety and trauma, but also other things as well, and do a lot of Act CBT. A lot of schema work as well. So if those things are of interest to you, you can always.

Isabella: Have a look, or if you have any clients you think might be a good fit, you can pass along my information.

Caitlin: cool? And you’re,cause I think the cool thing about podcasts are that they’re They stay up for ages and they’ve got a nice long shelf life because you want to do supervision, pretend, like be a supervisor potentially in the future. Hey,

Isabella: Yes. That’s something I’m thinking of doing maybe next year, doing my supervisor training. because I just love, I’m hoping it’s coming across in this episode. Like I love psych, obviously. And I love, supporting people in that. Like I love peer consultation and I love, learning. I’m always learning and I think you do learn through teaching as well.

Isabella: So, yeah, that’s something that I’ll probably be doing in the next year or so and really looking forward to that chapter as well.

Caitlin: It’s so exciting. You make such a fantastic supervisor and

Isabella: Thank you.

Caitlin: able to, cause part of all part of burnout is that like elements of like being cynical. And so I think having someone who’s able to hold the hope. In that, you know, supervisory relationship would be so important.

Isabella: Yeah. Thank

Caitlin: I’m excited to, to see where your journey, your business journey and everything.

Caitlin: But thank you so much for coming on the podcast and being brave and doing something different.

Isabella: Thank you. I appreciate it. I really do appreciate it. I always love chatting with you and I’m so happy to see where you’re going and so happy that we’ve maintained our friendship.

Caitlin: No, yeah. Thanks so much. Cheers.

Caitlin: Alright, that’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favour and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform and you’ll be the first to know as soon as a new episode drops.

Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, ta ta for now.