PhD-er to Podcaster: Dr. Bronwyn Milkins on helping early career psychologists

[00:00:00] Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

[00:00:21] Caitlin: Dr. Bronwyn Wilkins is an Aussie psychologist who hosts the popular mental work podcast for new psychologists. She loves creating mental work because it’s the kind of podcast she wished she had when she was starting out in psychology. And because she enjoys diving into messy and taboo topics that others shy away from.

[00:00:38] Caitlin: Here here, sister. Bronwyn is also low key obsessed with public speaking. Though she gets some weird looks for it and has won heaps of awards for it, including the Brian Stokes Award for Cultural Excellence, UWA Three Minute Thesis, Toastmasters State Award for Impromptu Speaker, and she’s given a TEDx Talk.

[00:00:58] Caitlin: All right, Dr. Bronwyn, welcome to the podcast. I’m so happy you’re here.

[00:01:02] Bron: Thanks so much for having me on Caitlin, happy to be here.

[00:01:07] Bron: Awesome. So, first up before we get into it, because I have a few questions for you, but, can you tell me a little bit about your psych journeyOkay. It’s like, where do I

[00:01:18] Caitlin: a very big, big, broad question.

[00:01:20] Bron: Yeah. But

[00:01:21] Caitlin: What is the meaning of life?

[00:01:23] Bron: Yeah. It’s kind of like that. I first started studying psychology when I was 14. So in high school.

[00:01:29] Caitlin: Wow,

[00:01:29] Bron: Yeah. And I loved psychology. It was a really great subject. And I loved doing experiments. And so the first thing I did in psychology was After graduating from school, I then studied it at university and I really enjoyed studying it at uni as well.

[00:01:47] Bron: And then I did the honors year. And then because I really enjoyed doing research, I love designing experiments and I love conducting things. Like in high school, we had to do a few experiments and I would force, classroom mates to write because there was like, I was like, can you, can you detect people’s personality from their handwriting?

[00:02:08] Bron: and then I did another experiment in high school where we were like, does attractiveness affect how people, how many people help you in public? And so we got my friend to drop shopping bags in shopping centers and see how many people helped so that’s the kind of shit that I used to do.

[00:02:27] Caitlin: You’re like a, natural psych, like, yes, psychologist,

[00:02:29] Bron: Yeah. Yeah. I did a PhD, in psychology first. That was the first thing I did. yeah. And then it’s like, I love research, but I didn’t want to be an academic. So my partner is an academic and you just have a look at people who are in academia and it’s really cutthroat. you have to be constantly applying for grants.

[00:02:50] Bron: You have to publish or perish. Everything is really hard. There’s not enough positions for how many people want to do it. And another thing is that I’m not really passionate about publishing. I like doing the research, but look, you’ve got to be passionate about publishing to be an academic. And I was like, look, you know, it’s not for me.

[00:03:08] Bron: so I was like, what else can I do? And then, Like a few years before I finished my PhD, that’s when I pivoted into becoming a psychologist. So I did a pathway, the five plus one pathway. So that’s a one year master’s and then you do, it took me about two years to do the plus one. It’s supposed to be a year, but I took two years and then, yeah, I became a psychologist and then I, I started my own private practice, and that’s where I am now.

[00:03:36] Caitlin: Beautiful. That’s, that’s interesting that you did, yeah, the PhD first. What did you do your PhD in?

[00:03:41] Bron: Insomnia. So I looked at why people worry before they go to bed at night. yeah.

[00:03:46] Caitlin: gosh. Interesting.

[00:03:47] Bron: Yeah. It

[00:03:48] Caitlin: did you find out? I’m going to take notes.

[00:03:50] Bron: yeah, so, well, the thing that I found out is that, one, I Folks have an automatic bias towards paying attention to negative information before they go to bed at night. So they’ll focus on their heart rate, their racing thoughts, and they’ll be like, Oh my God, if I can’t get my thoughts to settle down, then I’ll be a disaster tomorrow. So they’re kind of drawn to focusing on negative stuff before bed. And then the other thing I found is that because you’re so tired, you find it difficult to get your attention away from the negative thoughts. So you might be like, think of fluffy sheep, think of fluffy sheep.

[00:04:26] Bron: But it’s really hard to get your attention away from it. And it becomes kind of a cycle. It’s like the more you can’t sleep, the tighter you get, the harder it is to draw your attention away from it. The more you think about negative stuff and then you just get stuck in this, this awful, awful loop.

[00:04:39] Caitlin: It’s horrible, isn’t it? And it’s such a, do you work with insomnia a bit now in like clinical practice?

[00:04:46] Bron: Well, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting because I’m an ADHD, so I love novelty. So it’s like, technically yes, but I could have niched into it. But for me, having studied insomnia for eight years, it was like a death sentence to think that I would continue to niche in that. So, It’s like I do, like I’m pretty good at it, I’m working with insomnia, but I don’t advertise that as my niche.

[00:05:12] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Bron: Yeah.

[00:05:13] Caitlin: That makes total sense.

[00:05:16] Bron: something else.

[00:05:17] Caitlin: totally get that. would you recommend doing a PhD? Like when you’re like, when people ask, they say like, I’m going to do a PhD. I want to, what do you tell people?

[00:05:29] Bron: Hmm. Well, I think the first thing is what would you like to do your PhD on? So it’s like some people are just drawn to the concept of like, I’m going to do a PhD and I’m going to become a doctor. And it’s like, they think it’s this walk in the garden and it’ll be super easy and it’s like, well actually a PhD is a really rigorous program and you’re like, your skills of faith in yourself get shattered and then rebuilt over the course of a PhD.

[00:05:55] Bron: So it’s like prior to doing a PhD I thought I was good at writing for example. No, I wasn’t. I wasn’t. I was I was crap. and then, so you get broken and then rebuilt. so it’s like, what’s, what do you want to do your PhD on? What’s the gap? Like, have you had a look at, is there anything else similar to it?

[00:06:10] Bron: What’s going to be your point of difference? Because a PhD needs to be an original contribution to the literature. You can’t actually do what someone has done exactly before. It has to be original. and then you just have to think about the, The time you would dedicate and whether there’s a supervisor is interested in doing your topic.

[00:06:25] Bron: Like you might be interested in the psychology of like 17th century basket weavers. But if you can’t find a supervisor who wants to supervise you on that, it’s not going to go ahead.

[00:06:37] Caitlin: That example, that’s so,

[00:06:38] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:06:43] Caitlin: don’t know why it’s so funny, but you’re so right. Like you can have an interest or something like that, but if you don’t have a supervisor who’s like equally yes, let’s do it

[00:06:52] Bron: Yeah. You’re on your own and it’s really hard to do a PhD on your own. So yeah, it’s like, it’s yeah. So that’s what I would say to folk.

[00:07:01] Caitlin: That’s all. No, that’s a great tip because yeah, I’ve always toyed with the idea of doing a PhD because I love research. I find it really interesting writing and getting my like little research cave and just going down rabbit holes, but you’re right. I don’t think I could go down the academic pathway.

[00:07:17] Caitlin: Because, yeah, it seems like too much pressure.

[00:07:20] Bron: I mean, like that said, it’s like, I don’t regret doing a PhD, even though I’m non academic. I thought it was a really great opportunity. Like I learned so much about myself, about the topics, about how to do research good. and you know, I have done research assistant positions since then and I’ve really enjoyed it.

[00:07:36] Bron: So like, if you want a PhD in itself just to have like an academic kind of journey, then, then yeah, that’s a valid reason too.

[00:07:47] Caitlin: It’s, it’s an interesting thing. It’s like, yeah, always to get like shiny objects and dream as well. I’m like, I want to like, do this little thing, but yeah, you’re right.

[00:07:55] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:59] Caitlin: in saying that, tell me about like podcasting. Cause like, you know, your podcast is incredible. I love the idea of it.

[00:08:06] Caitlin: but yeah, tell me all about it.

[00:08:08] Bron: Yeah. So my podcast is called The Mental Work Podcast. I started, I think in late December, 2021, and I thought about doing it for ages, like at least a year and a half before I actually did it. And the reason why I started it was because I saw a gap. And I was literally like, if I don’t do this, somebody else is going to fill this gap.

[00:08:30] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:08:31] Bron: so the gap was like providing kind of real talk support for Australian early career psychologists, because I love podcasts. And what I found is that the only podcast for psychologists were in the U S and they were hosted by folks who, were either not seeing clients anymore or were really experienced in their careers, so I didn’t think that they could connect as well to the challenges that early career psychs are experiencing.

[00:08:57] Bron: So I was like two or two and a half, maybe three years out after being generally registered and I was like, yeah, I want a podcast where it provides like validation, guidance, support to early career psychologists and talks about the stuff that they don’t, that doesn’t get talked about as much.

[00:09:16] Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. It’s such a, such a need. Yeah. all of your like topics of your podcast. I’m like, yep, yep, yep.

[00:09:24] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:25] Caitlin: Excellent. So relatable, but yeah, no, it’s, but I also like how you say like with the idea thing. Yeah, because you’re right. There’s going to be someone else that comes along with the idea.

[00:09:36] Caitlin: It’s a weird thing like that with ideas, creativity and ideas. Like if it’s going to come out in the world somehow, and it’s like, is it going to be by you or

[00:09:45] Bron: Yeah. And I think I just like couldn’t stand the idea that if I didn’t do it, that somebody else would do it. And I’d like kicking myself. so I was just like, look, I got to do this. And I, I really like, talking about stuff. I like thinking deeply about topics and I like talking about. Kind of taboo topics as well.

[00:10:03] Bron: cause I’m like, we’re all experiencing it. It’s just that nobody’s talking about it.so yeah.

[00:10:08] Caitlin: Absolutely. Oh, so agree. And why podcasting instead of another format of, of creative expression?

[00:10:16] Bron: I think it’s because I’m a big public speaking nerd. it started pretty early for me with public speaking as well. I remember winning like a public speaking comp when I was like 10. and it was about climate change and I had a song with my speech. And thankfully the teachers were like, don’t sing your song with the speech and I think they’re just trying to save me from being bullied, which I agree with them now.

[00:10:40] Bron: It was a great song though. But the

[00:10:48] Caitlin: So imagine a little Bronwyn,

[00:10:49] Bron: yeah, so my little song about climate change,but yes, I’ve always enjoyed communicating by speech. I’ve always just found it easier than writing, I think. I think and speak faster than I write. And I really like speaking as a form because I think it allows me to be very honest with myself.

[00:11:11] Bron: Like I know if I say something I don’t agree with when I speak it, I’m like, Hmm, that doesn’t, that doesn’t actually fit with me. Why did I say that? Yeah.

[00:11:19] Caitlin: wow, that’s such a, Oh, I love that. Yeah. Because you’re so right. and that it makes me reflect on like how in therapy when I talk about things, I’m like, Oh wait, no, it’s not like that. It’s kind of like this. I’m like, actually, is it like that? And I like have this rambling like dialogue and I always feel like I’m doing therapy wrong, but yeah, I love that.

[00:11:38] Bron: so yeah, it’s, it’s like I could have started a blog, I could have done something else that I know I could have drawn interpretive pictures or done dancing or something. but I felt that, podcasting was kind of natural with my passion for public speaking and just, yeah, trying to put complex things into seeing, into things, into, into topics that people could understand.

[00:12:01] Bron: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:12:02] Caitlin: Yeah, no. into things. I like that

[00:12:04] Bron: Yeah.

[00:12:06] Caitlin: I like that

[00:12:07] Bron: Yeah. Clearly vocab is not my, my, my strength. It’s the speaking part.

[00:12:11] Caitlin: the speaking.

[00:12:12] Bron: Yeah.

[00:12:15] Caitlin: And have you done much public speaking, like as a psychologist? Yeah.

[00:12:19] Bron: Well, not it. Yeah. I guess it’s interesting, not as a psych, when I became a psych, the public speaking went down. So doing the podcast as a way to get that back up. So prior to becoming a psych, I had done heaps and heaps and heaps of public speaking. So I used to volunteer with an Australian organisation called the Black Dog Institute and they’re a leader in mental health research and they had this lived experience speaking program.

[00:12:42] Bron: So you could sign up to deliver mental health talks in high schools, to community groups and share your lived experience as part of that. So I did that for a few years and I did over 100 talks as part of that. Yeah, and just with doing that, sometimes I would have people from the audience, like teachers or community members be like, can you give a talk to our students on this?

[00:13:05] Bron: So there was a lot of word of mouth referrals. so I did a lot of that and I guess like another thing I did was I did, I did a TEDx talk as well.

[00:13:16] Caitlin: Oh, such it

[00:13:17] Bron: yeah, I did. what else did I do? I did a few kind of, keynote speeches, uh, events. I was also a mental health first aid facilitator for a few years.

[00:13:27] Bron: I’ve recently let my accreditation lapse, but I’ve done over 40 or 50 workshops. So, and I really enjoy facilitating workshops and that relies a lot on public speaking as well. and then the biggest thing was that I was a real Toastmasters nerd. So like, if anybody hasn’t heard of Toastmasters, it’s the nerd club for speech nerds.

[00:13:47] Bron: And I did that for a few years and yeah, I won a few competitions that way and just, yeah, I really enjoyed it.

[00:13:54] Caitlin: Cool. No, I’ve, I’ve heard of Toastmasters because I was at a con, like a, a small business conference last year and people were, were talking about like. personal branding and making, like how to do that, make a bit more of a profile. And people were talking about speaking and then I’ll say, Oh, I’m terrified of speaking.

[00:14:12] Caitlin: It’s literally like, I think that gives me the heebie-jeebies. And people were talking about Toastmasters and saying that it’s a great space to learn speaking.

[00:14:22] Bron: Yeah, I would agree with that. It is so supportive. and it’s so structured as well. So literally you get these little workbooks and you can work through these speeches and number one speech is like a little about me and people just give you positive feedback. Like you don’t get any critical feedback for your first speech.

[00:14:38] Bron: People are just like, Oh my God, we’re so proud of you. so, and it’s all for, it’s all for nerds as well. Like we’re all just friendly nerds. but yeah,

[00:14:46] Caitlin: it’s like a beautiful environment.

[00:14:47] Bron: it

[00:14:47] Caitlin: want to go.

[00:14:48] Bron: Yeah, I would recommend, because most people are very scared of public speaking, I don’t think you’re alone.

[00:14:54] Caitlin: Yeah, it’s, it’s a thing, right? what do you make of that? Like, why do you think public speaking has that about it?

[00:15:01] Bron: I think it’s a little bit about being under scrutiny, like a bit of imposter syndrome as well. somebody’s going to find out that I don’t know what I’m talking about, and the attention is all on me, so I have to carry this. So, I think that’s really normal to be scared of public speaking. And like, even though I love public speaking, I still do get nervous, so like my voice shakes, my leg shakes, it’s just that I interpret it as like, this is a normal thing, of course you’re going to feel nervous, so I don’t react to it like folks who are terrified of public speaking do, and they’re like, oh my god, my leg is shaking, I’m not going to be able to do this speech.

[00:15:34] Caitlin: Yes, absolutely. I love how you able to like, yeah, turn it around and Bring your, your knowledge, your psych knowledge in

[00:15:42] Bron: yeah, it’s, it’s handy, but yeah, it’s, I think it’s really tough people being the, the center and like, it’s only, you know, I only feel comfortable really when I was in full, fully like public speaking, I was doing like speeches once or twice a week when I was really into it and yeah. And But I didn’t really tell anybody about it because there was a misconception that I was attention seeking and just doing it for that reason.

[00:16:11] Bron: And so I kind of kept it hidden. So I think like people don’t really appreciate. Like the, the dedication effort that goes into writing a good speech and then working at how you can deliver it, how you can craft it towards an audience, how you can deliver complex messages in simple ways. It’s really, it’s really not about being the center of attention for me.

[00:16:32] Bron: It’s, it’s quite a different purpose.

[00:16:34] Caitlin: absolutely. Wow. That’s like breaks my heart a little bit that like, yeah.

[00:16:40] Bron: It did suck.

[00:16:41] Caitlin: And tell me about the, the link then about like creativity and public speaking.

[00:16:47] Bron: Oh yeah. I mean, just to expand, it’s like, there is so much, I’m, I’m also a big, I’m I’m also really passionate about music. So I grew up playing music. I actually grew up playing saxophone. and I was a band nerd extraordinaire as well. And so for me, I’ve always loved rhythm, pacing, tonality, like loudness, softness, like grit in your voice, how to use different inflections, how to.

[00:17:17] Bron: work out, if you say something in one way, what effect is that going to have on somebody emotionally? Cause you can do the same thing with music. You can like phrase things in different ways.

[00:17:26] Caitlin: That’s true.

[00:17:27] Bron: So, so for me, like public speaking is actually very similar to crafting something musically. It’s, it’s. How am I going to use repetition?

[00:17:36] Bron: What is it that I want to say? How am I going to get this across? And like, that relates a lot to me to playing saxophone because saxophone is a jazz instrument and improvisation is all about what do you want to say, how are you going to say it, and what phrasing you’re going to do, what are you going to borrow from traditional.

[00:17:52] Bron: saxophonist, like what’s this phrase that everybody’s heard over and over again that will help them be familiar and then you introduce a new idea. so to me it’s, it’s very intimately linked public speaking to creativity and I really love that about it. Yeah.

[00:18:08] Caitlin: Yeah. I haven’t, I haven’t thought of it like that before, but. That’s so true.

[00:18:13] Bron: Yeah. I mean, have you ever seen, like, slam poetry? Have you ever heard of that? Yeah.

[00:18:19] Caitlin: So powerful.

[00:18:20] Bron: Yeah, totally. And I’d say it’s like really similar. Like slam poetry really emphasizes like rhythm and tonality and they use a lot of emphasis. It’s kind of like a sharp and janky type, like way of speaking, but it can also be really flowy, to create different emotional impacts and highlight the words and message you want to get across.

[00:18:40] Bron: And so it’s very artistic and I see public speaking as just an extension of that.

[00:18:45] Caitlin: Wow. But now you’re saying that it makes sense because in terms of like brand voice and writing and things like that, there’s some of the things that I would notice when I write for brands and things like that, but I guess I’d never really thought about it in a speaking, which doesn’t make sense though.

[00:19:01] Caitlin: I wouldn’t have thought of it

[00:19:02] Bron: Oh, that’s all

[00:19:02] Caitlin: context, but yeah. Wow, I have so many questions now about all of that. How did you learn all of that? Like all those little details about tone and all of

[00:19:15] Bron: I think it was through practice, so it does have a very deliberate practice element to it. I, like my hobby used to be like sitting down at night and writing speeches, rewriting speeches, like working at how to present this information.And so it is a bit of practice, like if I say it this way, how is it going to come across?

[00:19:35] Bron: And I guess that’s like other artistic mediums. It’s like, like I do a bit of drawing as well. I’m not great at drawing, but I enjoy doing it. And it is being like, if I put this line here, what’s the effect on the drawing? and it’s very much like that for speaking as well. So again, like Toastmasters provides a really great space to have that practice and stuff up.

[00:19:54] Bron: And It was really like just putting myself out there. And again, it kind of like parallels to me. To my experiences, like playing music growing up, because when I played saxophone, I was in a few jazz bands and it’s like, you just got to go for it. Like try and do a solo and put yourself out there. And it might be rubbish.

[00:20:12] Bron: It might be complete shit. but you did it and you have a go and then you work out what you’d like to do next with it. that said like Toastmasters also has specific guidance for like how to do things, which is great. So again, like learning from that. Another thing I did was. There’s a kind of comedian slash storyteller here in Perth, and I did a few of her workshops about how to tell stories.

[00:20:36] Bron: And that was really helpful. I really enjoyed doing that. so that was a great way to learn about it too.

[00:20:42] Caitlin: Who was that?

[00:20:44] Bron: Oh gosh. Her first name is Andrea. She’s,

[00:20:48] Caitlin: Putting you on the spot.

[00:20:50] Bron: she ran, she runs a monthly storytelling event here in Perth. It’s called Barefaced Stories. And I actually delivered, I think I’ve delivered like two stories on a storytelling event nights and she helps people craft their stories and she’s just really, really good at it.

[00:21:06] Bron: I read a few books on storytelling and I read a few books on public speaking. It’s essentially like the way you get better at it is by nerding out about it.

[00:21:15] Caitlin: Yes, that, that, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Like you could read about it and all that, but it’s not until you like write it and then

[00:21:22] Bron: You have to practice it. Yeah.

[00:21:25] Caitlin: yeah, that’s so true. Are there ways, are there been times where you’ve been able to? I don’t know, do you, I’m just like imagining you giving a speech and you’re like kind of almost having seeing yourself from outside and like having to tweak what you say, or I don’t know, like, what is that experience like?

[00:21:40] Caitlin: Cause I feel like you couldn’t just say it, you’d have to be like really mindful about what’s happening.

[00:21:45] Bron: Yeah, you do. No, that’s a really good question and a good point. I’ve heard a few comedians speak to this interestingly, because they have to do it in a similar way. They try and tell jokes to get laughs, but they have to watch the audience’s reactions and know when something is bombing and how to save it.

[00:22:03] Bron: It’s very similar for public speaking, actually. So if I’m speaking, I am looking at the audience and I’m saying, did that land? Like, did that have the kind of emotional impact that I wanted it to have, and you can kind of pick up on these subtle cues, and then you might be able to be a bit more casual if you’re speaking too formally, or increase the formality of how you’re speaking.

[00:22:25] Bron: And you can even go back and be like, look, I just want to emphasize blah, blah, blah, or I want to clarify that this is the most important thing that I am saying today. And so you can kind of pick up on what’s happening, monitor that, monitor your speech. But again, that’s something that you learn through practice.

[00:22:43] Bron: It’s like, I’ve got a whole bunch of get out of jail free cards in my mind and I just like use them when I can.

[00:22:50] Caitlin: That’s excellent.

[00:22:51] Bron: Yeah.

[00:22:53] Caitlin: Oh, that’s so good. That must be, do you bring that into like your therapy work then, like when you’re working with patients?

[00:23:00] Bron: Yeah. So one of the things that I love about therapy is literally speaking with people, and working on the fly with people. So being quite flexible in how I approach things and it honestly doesn’t phase me. If a client is like, Look, I don’t really understand what’s happening here. I’m like, great, let’s try it another way.

[00:23:18] Bron: And then we can work on the fly with that. I’ve also been told by lots of patients that they enjoy working with me because they can understand what I’m saying. So rather than kind of regurgitating what I’ve read in a textbook, I can put it in a way that works with my clients and their language and scaffold much better.

[00:23:36] Bron: so yeah, I’d say public speaking skills definitely translate into clinical work.

[00:23:42] Caitlin: Does that, has, how has that impacted your work from like a creative sense or even like a, I guess I’m getting at, like how has it enriched your practice?

[00:23:55] Bron: I think, I think it enriches my practice because I can just think a bit freer about things. So again, like being an ADHD er, I do have a lot of impulsivity in me, you know, it’s one of the subtypes of ADHD. And so, but I really love that aspect of myself at times, because it’s really great for creativity.

[00:24:19] Bron: A lot of folks who aren’t impulsive, they will have creative ideas, but they will shut them down and be like, no, I can’t do that. Whereas I find that if I’m saying something with my clients, I’ll think of something and I’ll be like, yeah, let’s go with it. let’s have a go. And I do think that that enriches the work.

[00:24:38] Bron: So I guess like through public speaking, it’s like you learn, you have, you have to have a willingness to fail. so I have delivered some speeches that have completely bombed in front of like hundreds of people. yeah. And it’s, it sucked. but like you cannot deliver just like therapy, you cannot deliver perfect sessions all the time.

[00:24:59] Bron: You can’t deliver perfect speeches all the time. You’ve got to be willing to get in there, have a go. And then learn from it and be like, look, that one didn’t, that one didn’t go so great. But, you know, I’m learning and, you know, it’s unrealistic to think that I could excel all the time and everything that’s, that’s not fair on me.

[00:25:19] Caitlin: no, exactly. It brings that self, like bit of more compassion

[00:25:23] Bron: Yeah. I think so.

[00:25:24] Caitlin: yourself.

[00:25:25] Bron: Yeah. Hmm.

[00:25:26] Bron: Particularly as a early

[00:25:28] Caitlin: career psych where, I don’t know, What is your experience of being an early career psych in a nutshell?

[00:25:34] Bron: Uh, anxiety.

[00:25:38] Caitlin: Yeah. And like one word or less.

[00:25:40] Bron: Yeah. And, and it’s so funny cause I’m not actually an anxious person, like personality wise, I’m pretty like chillaxed. Like I’m pretty like things will work out, I’ll be all right. But being an early career psych, it just like brings out this whole other side of me, which is like terror, anxiety, like,

[00:26:00] Caitlin: I agree. Yeah. I’ve like always thought of myself as a calm, like chill, go with the flow, whatever person, and then all of a sudden now I’m like, yeah, I’m like, a breakdown every like second week

[00:26:13] Bron: Yeah. Do I know enough? Uh, I think I know something. I don’t know anything.

[00:26:18] Caitlin: of

[00:26:18] Bron: Am I cut out to be a psychologist? Nah, I’m not. Or maybe I am. Like, I don’t know. It’s just a constant questioning, constant anxiety, constant imposter syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:29] Caitlin: yeah, I’m really, it really is. But I’m so glad that your podcast exists where you can normalize that experience.

[00:26:37] Bron: Yeah.

[00:26:38] Caitlin: yeah, no, I, was reading that your, I was actually on your, like on your podcast just before on like my, iPhone reading your reviews and it’s really sweet.

[00:26:47] Caitlin: Like what people say

[00:26:49] Bron: Yeah. Yeah, it

[00:26:50] Caitlin: about how they show their supervisees and yeah,

[00:26:54] Bron: Yeah, it’s nice. Yeah, I’ve gotten a lot of nice feedback from folks about the podcast that it’s, Yeah, given a voice to some of the things that they’re feeling. It’s gotten them through some hard times that they’ve cried because of the validation. It’s, it’s really nice that it’s like meaningful.

[00:27:09] Bron: yeah.

[00:27:10] Caitlin: yeah, it’s a great thing to have done, I don’t know, I wonder what were the challenges and things that you faced at the start of doing your podcast.

[00:27:19] Bron: I think the challenges were, How much work was involved? So, like, I knew that there was going to be a lot of work, but now I understand that when you set up a podcast, you are setting up a whole new product. And that’s what it is. So it, it needs to have a brand. It needs to have a voice. it needs to have an aim.

[00:27:40] Bron: It needs to have perfect, a purpose, taglines. like what an episode is going to consist of, and there’s just all these little, so there’s the kind of branding side of things, and then there’s the logistics side of things. How are you going to do things? What software do you need? how are you going to get great sound?

[00:27:58] Bron: That sort of thing. And then of course, if you need guests, like how are you going to get guests? What’s that going to look like? so I think the challenges were. working out how to, how to build this product, like starting with an idea and how to get to a product that is, is able to be understood by people so that they can clearly understand your purpose.

[00:28:18] Bron: You don’t want it to be too complicated. People will turn off quickly. yeah.

[00:28:24] Caitlin: That’s a good point there, in terms of, yeah, making it clear about what it’s, yeah, what it’s for. Like it’s,

[00:28:31] Bron: Yeah.

[00:28:32] Caitlin: that like an interesting idea, it’s maybe not enough. Which leads me to my next question, like, should everybody have a podcast?

[00:28:42] Bron: okay, the short answer is no, because you have to work out, is this the creative medium that you want to adopt to get your message and ideas across? Or is there something else that is more aligned with Your passions, your goals that would suit that better because ultimately podcasting really is a passion project.

[00:29:09] Bron: like you’ll see big podcasts and they get thousands of downloads every week. Like, you know, we’re talking 40, at least. It’s highly unlikely that you are going to have that reach. unless you align yourself with a podcast network and then you have to talk about intellectual property and stuff like that.

[00:29:28] Bron: You get into those kinds of conundrums and can they afford to support you or do they want you to change your ideas? So, so there’s that. So you have to be content that like, if you get 10 listens for your podcast episode, is that cool with you? And I know that That would actually be cool with me. If I think about having 10 people in a room, listen to me talk about things, I’m like, yeah, I’d be really happy if 10 people came up in a room.

[00:29:54] Bron: Like that’s nice. but some people that might get them down. So for me, I actually don’t look at my podcast statistics often, if at all, I only do it when I reach milestones. And so I can kind of like promote it. And I use it as a bit of like leverage now. so I’m like, okay, I’ve had this many listens, like, so that people know it’s legit.

[00:30:14] Bron: And so that can get like other guests. but other than that, I don’t focus on it, but yeah, it does require, a lot of work, passion. so it’s not, it’s not for everyone. and, but you know, that said, like, you can always give it a go, like, there’s no harm. Like, you know, for me, like, again, being an ADHDer, like, I pick up hobbies, like, there’s no tomorrow.

[00:30:36] Bron: and they last for six weeks, and then they’re like, you know, in the trash pile. so, so, you know, whatever, like, go for it if you wanna. Yeah.

[00:30:46] Caitlin: for it, but just, yeah, FYI, if your heart’s set on it, like it’s a lot of work and yeah,

[00:30:53] Bron: yeah, if your heart set on getting a hundred thousand listeners per episode, like, you know, I’m always, you know, reach for the stars kind of person, but just, just be a little realistic about what that might involve to get there.

[00:31:05] Caitlin: Absolutely. No, but I love that reframe about like, yeah, imagining how many people are in the room because it’s so true. Like even for Instagram, sometimes I’m like, my post has only got like, you know, a reach of what, like a hundred or something like that. But then if there was like a hundred people in the room, like that’s, yeah,

[00:31:23] Bron: Yeah. If you would, if you would show it a hundred people in a room, like your picture and they would all be like, yeah, cool picture.

[00:31:28] Caitlin: Oh, picture. Yeah, exactly.

[00:31:30] Bron: stoked. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:34] Caitlin: Yeah.

[00:31:38] Caitlin: I don’t exactly, I think I still haven’t really worked out what I’ve got myself into while having a podcast, but.

[00:31:45] Bron: You can learn on the way.

[00:31:46] Caitlin: I’ll learn exactly. I’ll learn on the way, learn on the go. Just before we hit, record today and you’re like helping me with my headphones. Oh yeah, that’s, that’s how you turn up the volume.

[00:31:57] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:58] Bron: But that’s okay. You don’t, I mean, you don’t have to know everything from the start to get started, you know?

[00:32:03] Caitlin: Yeah, that’s so true. And I think that’s a great thing to learn, in business that it doesn’t, which is a hard thing for a psychologist, right? We’re all, a lot of us are perfectionistic.

[00:32:12] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:32:13] Caitlin: Yeah. A lot of things.

[00:32:14] Bron: Yeah.

[00:32:18] Caitlin: So yeah, like kind of messy, but started as better than, not done because it needs to be perfect,

[00:32:24] Bron: Yeah.

[00:32:26] Caitlin: what advice would you, you’ve given so much great info, but what advice would you have or like, yeah, advice for maybe people who are considering, I don’t know, being a little bit brave and doing public speaking.

[00:32:40] Bron: Oh, for public speaking. You know, yeah, I’ve had a few people say to me, like, I want to get into public speaking. I think, again, it really depends. what you want to do it for, what’s your message, what’s your aims here, and then you need to take it from there. Because I think if your goal is like, I want to be a keynote speaker on trauma in first responders, you know, like, that’s a, that’s a pathway that would require Yeah, you would need to have good public speaking skills because otherwise if you get booked for a keynote and you’re rubbish, they’re not gonna get you back again and they’re gonna tell all their mates and they’re not gonna hire you either.

[00:33:25] Bron: So you need to have good public speaking skills and then you need to also work out how much you want to charge, and how much you can charge. And so there’s the, I think like, you know, private practice, there’s the business aspect and then there’s the skills aspect.but if you want to do public speaking and you just have a passion for getting out your message and you’re like, this is so important for people to know, libraries will take.

[00:33:51] Caitlin: Anyone. so I used to do some public speaking at libraries, like mental health talks, that kind of thing, but a few different bits and bobs. And I love having people from the community tell their story. It’s a great, it’s kind of like the open mic for public speaking. So sweet.

[00:34:06] Bron: So it’s like, you know, there are older folks who just want to, want to see someone who’s like doing stuff and you can speak to them and the oldies love you, but they’ll also give you great feedback. but yeah, it’s like, if you want to get your message out, there are so many places that you can do that for free.

[00:34:20] Bron: And I think as a psychologist or a mental health professional, you’ve got a lot of valuable knowledge that the community really wants to hear, that a lot of them don’t have access to. Like you think everybody’s on the Instagram and the TikTok and stuff, but there are a lot of folks who are not, who, really don’t have mental health information at hand, and they would love to hear it.

[00:34:40] Caitlin: so yeah, if you want to get into public speaking, join Toastmasters, contact some libraries, contact some community organizations, that’s if you don’t mind doing it for free. Yes.

[00:34:50] Bron: if you want to go down the paid route, then probably get some coaching around how to set up the business side.

[00:34:55] Caitlin: Yeah. It’s a, it’s a whole thing, isn’t it? Like the business side, the clinical aspect, but then the business aspect, which is totally different. how did you go with the business side of things? Are you like, do you have friends and like family who are in business or

[00:35:11] Bron: No. Not at all. Oh my God. Not at all. yeah. So my beautiful mum who is, very gifted intellectually, but, is kind of twice exceptional neurodivergent. So she also has, dyslexia and a few other, learning stuff. She finished school when she was 14 and my dad’s been in the Navy since he was like 20.

[00:35:29] Bron: so there’s no business acumen. in my family at all. and so yeah, it’s been, it’s been a, a journey of self-learning. there, yeah.

[00:35:40] Caitlin: It’s, oh yeah. Yeah. It’s interesting, isn’t it? Like I, they can’t teach us everything at university, but

[00:35:46] Bron: no.

[00:35:47] Caitlin: at the same time, it’s, I don’t know. Well, maybe if I knew what was involved, I probably, maybe I wouldn’t have done it. So maybe it’s one of those things. I don’t know.

[00:35:55] Bron: yeah. I don’t know. It’s kind of like, yeah. When I started my private practice, I didn’t know anything about business, but I was just like. jumping into the deep end, I think. but I read a lot of books. I’ve always been, cause I’ve always loved learning and I can pick up information pretty quick.

[00:36:11] Bron: I’ve always just like read books about stuff and then I’m just like, okay, like I’ve, I feel less anxious now. Yeah.

[00:36:17] Caitlin: wow. That’s a, oh, that’s a gift. Like,

[00:36:19] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Caitlin: and I’ve forgotten like what it was. Oh, five minutes later, I’m like, what was the message of that book again? Oh,

[00:36:31] Bron: But like that said, it’s, it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s pretty all right. But for, for public speaking for podcast, even I’ve been really, I think the best way to say it is pretty slack around the business side. So when I was like doing a lot of public speaking, there were, I always got paid for mental health first aid workshops.

[00:36:53] Bron: I got paid for a few public speeches, but I think the main challenge in having a creative hustle is getting other people to see the value in what you are, contributing

[00:37:06] Caitlin: yeah, it’s so true.

[00:37:08] Bron: with public speaking, people don’t, they don’t Okay, how do I want to say this? It is difficult for people to recognize expertise.

[00:37:16] Bron: I think that’s just like my blanket statement. you know, people think of psychologists and they’re like, oh, you just talk to people and they don’t recognize the skill that goes into analyzing everything that the person is doing, what you’re doing, the emotions in the room, attending to that relationship, not going too fast with somebody, like gradually getting out their motivations for doing something and why they want things to change.

[00:37:37] Bron: There is so much skill that goes beyond just talking. And so likewise with public speaking, people will be like, Oh, you just talk and they don’t understand the expertise that goes behind that. So, It’s difficult at times to be able to like, charge or, have people pay you what, what your skills are worth, because they don’t understand the expertise and they’re like, well, I’ll just go with Joe Blow over there who will speak for free.

[00:38:05] Bron: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:38:08] Caitlin: it’s so, yeah. So true. Isn’t it? Like with the, when you were talking, I just imagined an iceberg, like you say, there’s a little bit tip of it, but it’s, yeah, so much goes into it. And the speaking, it just like when you were talking before about what you’ve had to learn to be able to speak really well and confident, like, Whoa, that’s a lot.

[00:38:26] Caitlin: That’s a lot.

[00:38:28] Bron: Yeah. but like, you know, your average person won’t know that and it’s, sometimes it’s not until you’re in it that you really understand it. And same with podcasting. It’s like. There are, I think, significant differences between podcasts that do it really well and those where I’m like, there are areas for improvement.

[00:38:47] Bron: and, but, you know, so it’s like, what value do we place on things? is really hard with creative, endeavors. Yeah. So it’s kind of been hard for me to develop business plans around it. cause you don’t know. what the value is or what people will pay for it. and creative work can connect with people in so many different ways.

[00:39:07] Bron: Like when I think of music, for example, it’s like, you never know if that’s going to have an emotional impact, which changes somebody’s life, which means they’ll follow you like gig to gig. or if they just want to have a casual listen and maybe they’ll like buy a CD, and that’s it for them, you know?

[00:39:23] Bron: So it’s, It’s

[00:39:25] Caitlin: the level of, it is like what the level of, yeah, relationship, what they’re wanting out of it.

[00:39:31] Bron: Yeah. But they’re wanting out of it. Yeah.

[00:39:34] Caitlin: It’s hard to know. What do you think though? Like makes a good podcast.

[00:39:40] Bron: I think it’s, it’s different for everyone. I would say the basics are good sound because if I, if I, cause I like, I love podcasts, I listen to heaps of podcasts. it’s kind of like, like I used to watch speeches and analyze them. Like when I say I’m a public speaking nerd, it’s true. so I really enjoy listening to podcasts and kind of doing the same thing.

[00:40:01] Bron: and. Somebody could have great content, but if I can’t understand them because of the sound quality, I’ll turn it off. so you just, it doesn’t have to be perfect, but it just has to be audible and listenable. the other thing that makes a great podcast is knowing what, actually it’s knowing your listeners.

[00:40:19] Bron: So that’s part of the branding. So, you know, one of the things that was recommended to me when I started the podcast, I did a podcast course, Was doing an avatar of your listener. So who is listening? What’s their job like, when are they listening to the podcast? What do they want to hear? what don’t they want to hear?

[00:40:39] Bron: And for me, my listenership, are early career psychologists who are busy, but anxious, so they don’t want to hear me waffle on about something not related to them for 10 minutes. They want me to get straight into the topic and give them real relatable stuff. That’s validating and practical. So that’s what I do.

[00:40:56] Bron: But in saying that, another podcast, like I have a podcast that I love and the purpose of that podcast is to waffle on about nothing. and I love listening to it. so it’s really, it’s really knowing your listener. Cause yeah, what’s good for one podcast might not be good for another podcast. And it’s the same with public speaking.

[00:41:12] Bron: Like the first thing that I say to folks when they’re like, I’ve got to write a speech is I’m like, who’s your audience? yeah. So, and that’s what, that’s who you need to write to

[00:41:21] Caitlin: yeah. The knowing your audience and has that changed for you over time? Like when you first started out, In terms of your avatar, have you refined it or is it,

[00:41:32] Bron: Yeah, I think I, nah, I edit it every now and then. it’s kind of stayed pretty consistent. I would say like for an early career listener, maybe the thing that’s changed over time is the amount of pressure that I feel under. I think that’s increased over the years that I’ve been doing the podcast. I think, Yeah, I just think there’s so much more pressure on early career psychologists to, to know everything straight away and be brilliant straight away and retain all their clients.

[00:42:03] Bron: and so yeah, so I guess that’s who I try and speak to. And so I usually give those messages. It’s like, you don’t have to know what you like straight away. It’s okay to explore different things. Like it’s okay to make mistakes. And I’ve got heaps of episodes about this kind of stuff, like take it at your own pace.

[00:42:19] Bron: You’re not a bad psych, that kind of thing.

[00:42:22] Caitlin: So that’d be so powerful. Wish. Yeah. I wish I had you,

[00:42:28] Bron: Oh.

[00:42:28] Caitlin: a few years ago.

[00:42:31] Bron: I mean, I wish I had something like it as well. It’s like, yeah. Yeah. It’s a bit of being the person you wish you had kind of thing.

[00:42:38] Caitlin: it is. Yeah. It, yeah, it really is. But how beautiful that, yeah, you can help other people on like a bigger

[00:42:47] Bron: Yeah.

[00:42:48] Caitlin: And yeah, it’s nice.

[00:42:50] Bron: Hmm.

[00:42:52] Caitlin: But, well, I’ve loved this conversation. It’s gone really quickly. Time. is there anything that I haven’t asked you or like anything thoughts that have popped up that you feel like you need to say?

[00:43:02] Bron: can I do a recommendation?

[00:43:05] Caitlin: Yeah, of course.

[00:43:06] Bron: I just tell folks like in case anybody is thinking of starting a podcast, the podcast course that I did. Isn’t it funny when you’re trying to remember something and then you can’t remember the name of what you’re trying to recommend? So I just look it up.

[00:43:19] Caitlin: Yeah. Look it up. Yeah. No, take your time.

[00:43:22] Bron: Okay, so the podcast course that I did was Developed by a lady. Her name is Rachel Corbett. She’s actually the head of the Mama Mia network. And so she’s developed heaps of podcasts. She’s been on the project a bit. She’s like a fill in host and she has a course called pod school. And I think it costs about 700 bucks, but honestly it was worth every cent.

[00:43:48] Bron: so she has videos, which are kind of like over your shoulder, how do I use this software? She answers all of the questions and she has a Q and A supporting folks for a few months afterwards. So if anybody has listened to this and they are like, yeah, I am happy with just having 10 folks in the room. and you really want to start a podcast.

[00:44:05] Bron: Yeah. Like I would highly recommend doing that course.

[00:44:09] Caitlin: Well, thank you for that. I’ll pop it in the show notes. Absolutely. Because. Yeah, that would be so beneficial having over your shoulder

[00:44:17] Bron: Yeah.

[00:44:19] Caitlin: because it feels like such a, like a whole new world podcasting.

[00:44:22] Bron: It is. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[00:44:24] Caitlin: really is.

[00:44:25] Caitlin: Okay, so now for some rapid fire questions, Now. Bron. What is your favorite movie?

[00:44:33] Bron: My default favourite movie is Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

[00:44:39] Caitlin: Good movie.

[00:44:41] Bron: And most recently the movie Arrival because it’s based on a short story by Ted Chiang, I believe. Anyway, it’s an amazing short story and it’s a really amazing sci fi movie.

[00:44:55] Caitlin: Now what’s a. Concert that you’ll never forget.

[00:44:59] Bron: A concert that I’ll never forget. There are so many.

[00:45:04] Bron: I love seeing live music. One concert that I’ll never forget is probably recently I loved seeing Björk. I had tried to see Björk at the Big Day Out back in 2008, I think.

[00:45:23] Bron: She canceled Sydney, never got to see her. Finally saw her over 10 years later last year in Perth.

[00:45:30] Desktop Microphone (R�DE NT-USB+)-3: And now for my favorite question, what’s an absurd thing that you love or an absurd fact about you.

[00:45:38] Bron: An absurd thing that I love is hideous fashion. The more that clothes clash, patterns clash, things aren’t meant to go together. The worse they look, the more I love it.

[00:45:48] Caitlin: Well, well, so excellent. What. what a good, absurd thing that you love. I’ve always been envious of people who seem to be able to pull that off, wearing or mismatch things. And it looks. Incredible together. thank you so much for, coming on. Where can listeners, find you?

[00:46:07] Bron: They can find the Mental Work Podcast anywhere you listen to podcasts. So if you listen through any app, you can find it, just search for Mental Work. You can also find it on Spotify and iTunes, anywhere where you listen to podcasts, it’s there. And if you’re not podcast savvy, then you can find the podcast at the website, which is mentalworkpodcast.

[00:46:28] Bron: com. Give it a listen. See what you think. Share it with your mates. I’d be keen to hear what you think of it. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:35] Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. Please do take a listen. It’s, it’s a lot of fun as well.

[00:46:39] Bron: Yeah, it is. I should have, I should have emphasised that. Yeah.

[00:46:43] Caitlin: It’s a lot of fun, which is, yeah, like as an early career psych, I feel like fun is often missing. So it would

[00:46:50] Bron: I agree.

[00:46:51] Caitlin: and like, yeah, it’s very serious. And so it’s no wonder one of my values for my psych practice is fun.

[00:46:58] Caitlin: That’s so important.

[00:46:59] Bron: No, I love fun. Yeah. And that’s so true. I should have said that sometimes I can get a bit doom and gloom about things, but, but it is so much fun. It’s really fun connecting with folks and, yeah, just laughing with people about stuff. I love laughter and I love fun.

[00:47:14] Caitlin: I’ve had a lot of fun and a lot of laughter today, so yeah, I really appreciate your time and thank you. And we’ll, yeah. Talk soon.

[00:47:23] Bron: Yeah. Thank you, Caitlin.

[00:47:24] Caitlin: Alright, that’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favour and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform and you’ll be the first to know as soon as a new episode drops.

[00:47:46] Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, ta ta for now.