The myth of the big break and the truth about thriving in creative careers with PhD candidate Lauren Moxey

Caitlin: There’s a quiet crisis in the arts. We love music. We stream it daily, but the people who make it often underpaid, overworked, and trying to build a career and promises shape more by dream merchanting than actual opportunity. If you’ve ever questioned what it really takes to thrive as a creative, this episode is for you.

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their healthcare hats for nonclinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist, turn copywriter, and this is healers with hustles.

Caitlin: Now I’ve got an exciting guest for you today. Lauren, who’s a PhD candidate in the creative arts at JCU, where she’s challenging the status quo with her research on national cultural creativity and human thriving in Australia’s popular music ecosystem.

Caitlin: Lauren is on a mission to empower creatives, to nurture a culture of genuine creativity and to radically redefine what it means to be an artist. In today’s world, she’s passionate about building a new vision of art space, careers that acknowledge the difficult realities of working in the creative industries.

Caitlin: Hell yeah. While also equipping artists to thrive on their own terms. Unburdened by the weight of dream merchanting and unrealistic career narratives. Ooh, how.

Caitlin: well, welcome Lauren. I’m So thrilled that you agreed to come on the podcast today. How are you?

Lauren: I’m well, Caitlin, thank you so much for having me. I was really excited when I saw you were starting this project. it’s such an important niche, so I’m really thrilled to be here and, talk to you about creativity and hustles and all of those good things.

Caitlin: Yeah. I thought you were a perfect person to talk all about this because you are doing a PhD on the, on the topic, about creativity and everything like that. And I know that we talked, A little while ago. It must have been quite a few months now, time’s flown. and I loved what you were doing with your research, and so I’m keen to hear a little bit more about it.

Caitlin: But maybe if we start at the beginning and tell me a little bit about your story and your journey and your background and all that good stuff.

Lauren: Absolutely. Well, if I think back to my school days, music was always something I did, but it was never my main thing. It was, it was an extracurricular, endeavor that I enjoyed. I am that cool that I played the. Bassoon in high school. I also, played the piano for many years. when I finished school, I headed off into engineering at university and very quickly realized that it was not the right place for me.

Lauren: I did love maths and computing, but I really felt like I needed to write an essay, which was very strange because I had hated essay writing, all through school. so. Eventually ended up doing a degree in psychology, to start with. And then I finished that and said, that’s it. I’m done. I am never studying again.

Lauren: And then within about three months, I was enrolled in a Bachelor of music.

Caitlin: Famous last words.

Lauren: Exactly. So music eventually caught up with me and I realized that it was not just a side, activity for me, but something I, I really wanted to dig deeply into while I was young and had the opportunity to improve my, performance skills and also to. Understand better the theory behind music and why we, why music is important.

Lauren: and so I went off to do that, at a place it was then called Wesley Institute, which is also where I eventually met my now husband, Tim, who was a singer. And we used to play and sing together quite a bit. Actually, we, we don’t get time for that so much these days. but that is where we met,

Lauren: When I was finishing my degree, we’d been going out for all of 10 weeks and we got engaged,

Lauren: Really, I.

Lauren: but the shock of many people. But I think it was one of those when, you know, you just know kind of situations. because we were really good friends before we started dating. So that was at the end of, 2006 and he had a little bit, more of his degree to do. He was a year behind me, so I was kind of the main breadwinner as we were heading into marriage.

Lauren: So we ended up getting married. so we got engaged at 10 weeks after we started dating, but I. Our wedding was a year after we started going out. So it was all very fast. and you can appreciate living in Sydney. The need for an income was quite pressing. So after some dead ends in terms of trying to find, Regular jobs. I realized that I could expand the music teaching that I was al already doing in terms of private piano teaching. and that that would be enough to sustain us, at least for the foreseeable future while Tim finished his studies. so that was how I got into piano teaching. And Tim also was teaching, singing and a little bit of guitar as well.

Lauren: and so that was sort of how we ended up on our journey of music teaching.

Lauren: After we had been teaching for a few years, we both decided that it was time to take our teaching out of our home. By this point, we had two children and it was getting a little bit hectic, me trying to keep two little boys quiet.

Lauren: while Tim was teaching in a different room. So the opportunity came up for us to start, Sydney Vocal Academy, that was in 2013 we opened. it also happened to be the same time that Tim ended up performing on the Voice back when, people still watched it.

Lauren: And that was the second season. And that was a really good experience. You know, obviously people go on shows like that hoping that they will be the ultimate winner and he was not. but beyond that, it was a really positive experience for him. the chance to sing in front of millions of people, not just in Australia, I know the videos.

Lauren: I believe some are still online, have been seen. around the world ever since. And he got really positive feedback on, on the most part. it was something that I think really helped what we were trying to achieve with our singing school in terms of just raising his profile.

Lauren: when we opened our, our singing school, we had about 11 students that sort of. Sign up, date within a couple of years that had grown to, we kept hitting milestones and thinking, wow, this is great. We’ve got six, we’ve got 90. At our peak, we had over 220 students coming.

Caitlin: that’s a lot.

Lauren: which was just such a wonderful community and we really loved our students.

Lauren: it was hard work and especially by this point we had three children and trying to juggle childcare. something that some of your listeners might have experienced is that when you’re working in the performing arts, your work hours are outside normal childcare hour times. And you know, there are obviously challenges with that.

Lauren: we did have some really wonderful family support. Which helped. but you know, it, it meant there were times when, say, only Tim could teach or I could teach. We couldn’t really both teach together very often. which, then limits your income to some extent. and we had some really amazing concerts with our students.

Lauren: Different projects, musical theater productions. I’d come home from, from these days. I might have sat through four student concerts, my feet would be aching. I could barely move. I was so exhausted, but my heart would be so full. having student after student get up and conquer their fears and, and I’d get parents coming up to me afterwards, you know, in tears going, I had no idea my child could do that.

Lauren: so yeah, it was, it was a really precious time. I remember at one point, again, some of your listeners might relate. We had a student concert booked for the Sunday, which we would book our concerts a year in advance. And by the time the concert came around, I was very pregnant and I, I actually knew I was having the baby on the Friday, but the concert had been booked before the baby was booked.

Lauren: So, you know, the show must go on. and I think the, the people at the club where we had the concert were quite relieved that I didn’t give birth there in the auditorium. we also had a wonderful, team of staff. some of them had actually been students who then graduated and were able to help them grow into amazing teachers. So, it was a huge part of our life. 99% of it was wonderful. It was a lot of hard work. It was exhausting. There are always in business, you get some challenges.

Lauren: it was a really wonderful community. and then came covid. And as it happens, singing and Airborne pandemic viruses.

Caitlin: Yes.

Lauren: So being in New South Wales, the first year of the pandemic, which was 2020, we pretty quickly switched to online teaching, which was very doable. the group programs not so much because we’d always really cherished, the sense of community and we found that.

Lauren: Online group programs that were meant to be practical were very difficult to do that. So we, we had to stop them sort of early in the piece because we could see that they weren’t going to remain viable as well. but all the private lessons continued for quite some time because. It wasn’t so much the lockdowns that hurt in that first year.

Lauren: It was actually the, new South Wales government’s restrictions on room sizes, which I totally understand, you know, not particularly complaining about that. But our private teaching rooms were just too small for the eight meters square rule that we had in New South Wales. so. It was just a messy year by the time we could get back and use some of our space.

Lauren: we still had some people online and, and there is, there was always that, that fear of are we going to be the epicenter of the next outbreak?

Caitlin: There was that big thing, wasn’t there?

Lauren: There was such a stigma about that at that time. These days it’s like you get a note home from school every second day saying someone’s got covid. but back then and, and before the, the vaccine was available, you know, in terms of business, that could have been a real disaster.

Lauren: that was a, a stressful time. we obviously had our own children home during the lockdown, and our youngest was in kindergarten at that point, and our other two were sort of upper primary. and that was really hard as well. You know, you can’t just say to a kindie kid, okay, here’s your work for the day.

Lauren: Off you go. They need. And so we had to just, like everyone learn a new way of being for that time. at the, towards the end of that year, our lease was due for renewal. we had some really amazing, landlords, that we worked with and we put in a lot of thought. but we ended up deciding not to renew our lease because we just had this sense that Covid wasn’t done yet.

Lauren: And

Caitlin: Yeah.

Lauren: as it happens, that sense was right. In 2021, we ended up having lockdowns in New South Wales, and especially in Sydney. that lasted from the end of June until mid-October is when they started to be eased.

Lauren: So that would’ve been, I, I don’t think I could’ve gotten through that period had I had to move everything back online and, you know, try to manage a business and staff and everything. we were. Relieved that we didn’t have to deal with. I mean, we were still doing some teaching, but we’d, we’d scaled down what we did significantly and we were relieved not to have to deal with the same volume of, of, student numbers that we had dealt with the first time it all went online.

Lauren: but in saying that. Closing. It was a really heartbreaking decision, and not one I would wish on anybody. And you know, there are still days where we look at each other and say, we really miss those days of SVA. but you know, I’m learning to look back with gratitude at that season of my life. both of us have moved on to new things, these days.

Lauren: and I’ll always. Yeah, just reflect back and, and look at all those lives that we had the privilege of being part of, some of whom start teaching for 10 years.

Caitlin: Wow, that’s a long time.

Lauren: so you see these young people grow up and turn into adults and many of them were still in contact with, which is really wonderful. So I think that was a very long answer to your question about my story.

Caitlin: Oh, I like it though. It’s it’s amazing how many Like chapters and the journey that you’ve been on because even starting the Vocal Academy, like that’s a big thing in itself to do. definitely. But I just keep thinking back to like when you were saying that you initially did engineering, and I find that really fascinating.

Caitlin: I guess like engineering and maths, it’s all about problems and understanding the why and how things go together and all of that, which is kind of similar to what you are in which what sounds like you’re interested in, in music, like understanding the theory and how that works.

Caitlin: Hi, healers, editor Caitlin here, just a heads up, there’s a, a little bit of a problem with the audio, so it might seem a little bit wobbly in places. so you might just have to deduce meaning from what we’re talking about. okay. Back to.

Lauren: Definitely. Yeah.

Caitlin: it’s

Lauren: come arts from quite a theoretical perspective. I’m not a natural performer. I, these days I rarely perform. I sort of finished my music degree and realized I don’t like performing. but that’s okay because there is so much I can do in the arts world that isn’t performing.

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s an interesting thing. ’cause that’s like what you probably first think of when you think of, maybe arts or music degrees. Like the actual, the singing and the performing How, how is that from a, confidence point of view and like feeling, I don’t know.

Caitlin: I just thinking of even just public speaking, like even speaking on a podcast, it freaks me out a bit. Like even on my own podcast, I get freaked out and so I think that’s just next level performing. how was that like for you when you first started?

Lauren: That is a very good question.

Lauren: So for me, when I get up to perform on piano or, or any other music, especially if it’s a solo type situation, being in an ensemble is a, a little different.

Lauren: The thought that goes through my head at that point is, why did I say I’d do this? And I, I, yeah. Yeah. Whereas my husband, Tim, he’s an incredible performer and that is where he is. At most at home is on stage. for him it’s the chatting to people afterwards that’s really stressful. but put a microphone and, and a band and he’s in his element.

Lauren: And I think as time went on, I, I realized that, and I, I kind of gave myself permission to not perform. You know, I can still play when I want to. I can still teach and I love teaching, but I don’t have to put myself in that situation that I do find really stressful. I mean, I, I get stressed, talking like I’m nervous being here with you today.

Lauren: I lecture at the moment in, in music and also in psychology, which again, I love doing. But there is that nervousness, in terms of the, the performative element of what I’m doing.

Caitlin: Absolutely. That’s so cool that you lecture. and then psychology too. What are you, what, what are you lecturing or teaching?

Lauren: This semester I am, I’m involved with two subjects. the first is called Formation three. It’s one of a series, and it’s talking about character formation, professional and personal development, career goals. That’s.

Caitlin: Wow.

Lauren: The creative and performing arts students at Excelsior College, which is what Wesley Institute where I went, became, and the other one is called Psychology for Social Work.

Lauren: and it. A, a grad dip program of students who are, wanting to go on and do a master of social work. so everything we are doing has that lens of, of not just the theory of psychology, but how does this actually relate to social work? And we have the most wonderful conversations. about life and culture.

Lauren: A lot of my students are from other countries and I love learning about their experiences. we talk about the theories and whether they hold up across, different cultures. because as you would know from your background, a lot of them were based on sort of white European men.

Lauren: Or Americans because that’s just where the research was coming from.

Lauren: so it’s really wonderful being able to add that extra level of nuance to those theories.

Caitlin: Absolutely. That’s so fascinating. You must have incredible conversations and it just must be, such an engaging time and particularly with the other subject that you teach. about like personal, like professional identity and all of that. That’s so fascinating. What is, what have you learned from that? Or like what are some key things that stand out?

Lauren: Well, actually this is a funny one that happened this week, in my career, and I’m sure other people can relate in their own contexts. There’ve been moments where I, I felt old. So the first time I felt old was when I realized some of my piano students were born. After I finished school, I. It was kind of that first time in my life.

Lauren: And then there’ve been other, other times along the way. like when students, I had taught since, you know, primary of in infant school, graduated, things like that. But yesterday, oh no, sorry, Wednesday, I had one who, where, I’ll do that again, but this week I had a student whose mom is younger than me.

Lauren: Not by much, but that was another I feel old kind of moment. It was very funny. We all had a laugh about that. but what I’ve been learning there is the importance of bringing academic research into, I’ll call it the real world. Obviously academia is the real world, but you know what I mean.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Lauren: Of needs. ’cause I think, you know, it’s not a perfect model, but it’s a good one. we’ve talked a lot about the work of Brene Brown, who I.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Lauren: And everything that she does. and I can see in my students this recognition, you know, they start to see themselves in this research and, and understand how it applies to their lives.

Lauren: And I think in academia we can tend to keep things locked away in journals, or books, and it never reaches the people who need it. That was, the realization that I had when I started my PhD back in 2019. So just before Covid. and I, I saw all this research about how music careers are difficult and that, you know, people who try to work in the music industry can experience,

Lauren: All kinds of impacts from, psychological impacts to financial impacts. The, the instability and precarity of that work can really affect people. And my first reaction was, why didn’t anybody tell me this before I started out? I

Lauren: mean, maybe it’s one of those things, if I had known, I would’ve been too scared.

Lauren: I would’ve just gone and worked in, engineering or something. but I, I’m a big believer that knowledge is power. I.

Caitlin: for

Lauren: And I, I think that that’s, you know, the next phase of, of academia ’cause it’s in all kinds of mess at the moment. I think if we can learn to bring our research to the communities and the people whose lives it can change, for the better, then, you know, academia will survive to see another day.

Caitlin: Yeah, because you’re so right there. Like what’s the point in doing all the research if it’s not actually gonna be implemented and it’s just gonna be Yeah. Locked away in a, a journal when it’s written at such. Ridiculous level of, you know, you have to, even people with a, university degree struggle reading some articles and it’s so true.

Caitlin: But how cool that you’re studying Brene Brown. ’cause Brene is an incredible example of how all of her research she’s brought to the business community. So that’s, oh, how fun. That sounds really fun. I wish I did stuff like that at uni. But tell me more about your research and how that’s going and what your biggest findings are, if you feel comfy sharing.

Lauren: So I am hopefully. Fingers crossed, planning to submit this year. So I’m right at the end of things. COVID certainly threw a spanner in the works, and I had to kind of redesign the research that I.

Caitlin: yeah.

Lauren: And then obviously having, children at home and work chaos and all of that impacted me. But I’m, I’m finally, on the other side of it all, what I’ve been investigating is what I’ve called naia, cultural creativity.

Lauren: So the creativity that emerges from a given nation. So. My context is Australia. So that’s what I’ve been looking at. So nacio, cultural creativity and human thriving in creative ecosystems. So how does Australian popular music impact the human thriving? Of audiences and also of the musicians who create it, because we have a bit of a paradox.

Lauren: I I don’t think we really need research to evidence that people love listening to music and especially popular music. But we, we consistently see that musicians, as I mentioned before, there are some really high rates of mental illness, of financial precarity and, and you know, poverty, amongst musicians.

Lauren: And it’s kind of like, well, if we want this music to continue to exist in the future, if we want people to go out and be able to watch live music or listen to recorded music, we need to think about the sustainability and the viability. of the ecosystem as a whole. The other aspect of it is looking at the uniqueness of Australia’s popular music.

Lauren: and what I’ve found is that it, it isn’t just imported American music. We have our own unique flavors of things. Sometimes they’re very subtle, you know?

Caitlin: Interesting. Yeah.

Lauren: yeah. About Oz Rock. That’s a really good example of when, I would call it strong NAIA cultural creativity. we saw lots of, you know, overt Australian this in, in our music.

Lauren: Think about this. the song Down Under

Lauren: that was unmistakably Australian. And that people would look at that and feel a sense of connection and belonging. Now, I’m not saying everybody loves a rock, but you know.

Caitlin: Yeah, definitely. I remember like it had that coming on in bars when I was over and living in, overseas, and it was like, oh.

Lauren: Completely. and, and it’s not just that sense of belonging. If we consider, Maslow’s hierarchy, we can see at different levels of that how music can contribute to our different needs. Now, I would argue that it contributes better to some need. Than others. and again, it’s different whether you’re in the audience or whether you’re the person on stage.

Caitlin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lauren: working in music, you might find that you just don’t earn enough money to satisfactorily, fulfill your physiological and safety needs. For example, you might live in Sydney. Housing is frighteningly expensive.

Caitlin: Yeah. Rock wild, isn’t it?

Lauren: Yeah, so it’s, it’s stuff like this, and I think that’s also why I was really excited about your podcast, this acknowledgement of, what academics would call this slash work when you are combining work.

Caitlin: Oh, I love that.

Lauren: From multiple different industries. So if it’s all in the same industry, if a musician, for example, does some songwriting, they do some performing, maybe they do some session vocals work and maybe they teach, that would be called a portfolio career because it’s in music. But once you start bringing in elements that are well outside of music, then it becomes a slash career.

Caitlin: Cool.

Lauren: And I think that slash careers are really important part of, maintaining the sustainability of the music industry and other forms of the creative and performing arts as well. But there are some challenges, and I’m guessing you’ve experienced some of these as well in terms of juggling your time between competing fans and even just the head space.

Lauren: I know having worked in multiple different roles simultaneously, say you have 40 hours worth of work booked in, it very often amounts to way more than 40 hours of headspace.

Caitlin: Yes, so true.

Lauren: and so that’s why, you know, I, I do think slash careers are important, but they do bring their own set of unique challenges.

Lauren: just back to that idea of the uniqueness of our music, I think it’s really important that we explore on a community level as well. And that is something I haven’t been able to do in my research or I would literally never finish it. But the idea that, you know, different towns and cities and regions can have their own unique expressions of creativity, whether that’s in music or in visual arts.

Lauren: in acting all, all the different, ways we express our, our creativity. I think it’s important for the people within those communities. Again, it generates a sense of belonging, of being part of something that’s bigger than yourself. It also creates interests. when you move around Australia or the world, I don’t know if you remember as a kid going into state and it would be like you were going to an alien land.

Lauren: Especially if like, I went to Queensland, you know, crazy place. It’s like, you know, the Outback and even in the cities it felt like the outback. I’m gonna start getting hate now. But you know, I would see different brands that didn’t exist down here, whereas these days that difference is much, smaller, I would argue

Caitlin: Yeah, definitely.

Lauren: in Australia. And you’ll see Maccas, KFC, all the sort of standard. outlets, even though I remember when, Myer used to be Grace Brothers in New South Wales.

Lauren: I’m not sure about Queensland. Did you have Maya or Grace Brothers up there?

Caitlin: I feel like it’s always been, I’ve always known Myers,

Lauren: Okay.

Caitlin: I don’t, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it wasn’t

Lauren: Yeah.

Caitlin: before. So I’m 90, born in 91, so.

Lauren: Oh, maybe you’re just a bit young. Maybe I’m showing my age here. and I remember when it changed in New South Wales and they, they brought it all under the one brand, which, you know, commercially it makes sense. But I was a little bit sad that we were losing that Grace Brothers part of our history here.

Lauren: I.

Caitlin: The changes, it’s, yeah, I remember going down to. Born and bred and then yeah, traveling down to Victoria and even it, Woolworths wasn’t called Woolworths, it was called like Safeway or something like that. Like even things on that level. It’s

Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, I love the different names for Devon around Australia. So I think in, in South Australia they call it Fritz

Caitlin: ah, is that right Fritz?

Lauren: and you know, it’s just, I mean, it doesn’t really impact anyone’s life, whether we call it Devon or Fritz or whatever the other names are for it, but. We all have such a strong, connection to where we are from and, and I realize where we’re from.

Lauren: That can change over time. You know, maybe you were born in one state and you moved to another and you start to identify more with that. But having a sense of home is so important for humans and it’s just these tiny little signals that remind us. Where we’re from, and as you say, when you’re overseas and you hear an Australian accent or an Australian song, there’s that moment of, of feeling seen, of, of connecting, and I, that’s really important.

Caitlin: Yes. That’s so fascinating because it’s so, like such on such detailed level, like breaking down cultures or breaking down music industry on that level. That’s incredible.

Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, you think about film clips, sometimes you’ll watch a film clip, and you’ll recognize places that you’ve been and then you might recognize places and you know they’re Australian, but you haven’t actually been there. I. And then other times it might be just way more generic, or overseas and you don’t recognize it, you know?

Lauren: and I’m not saying people like the song more because they’ve been to that place, but it’s that moment of going, oh, I’ve been there. I know that place. And you can imagine yourself in the film clip in that world, because you’ve been there, you’ve, you’ve touched it, you’ve smelt it. And I think that’s also something we really miss.

Lauren: During Covid, obviously the, all the pivoting to online expressions of the arts was really amazing what people came up with. but it’s interesting how quickly people went back to those in-person experiences because they just really missed that, that full sensory experience.

Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah. How so? Every, most people have transitioned back to face-to-face. Now has there been any big changes apart from maybe lectures in Zoom or that kind of thing?

Lauren: I think on the whole, people have gone back to in-person where they can. I’m very mindful of the community of people who are immunocompromised and who don’t. Same luxury and that must be really isolating for them,

Caitlin: yeah. Hugely.

Lauren: Go out and, and just experience the world. I think that we are using Zoom now more for convenience and access.

Lauren: So for example, you and I to do this in conversation would’ve really been not just cost prohibitive, but it would’ve felt wasteful as much as I would’ve loved to have come to you and had a coffee, you know, it would’ve. Day or more and all of that kind of thing, whereas we can do this, then we both get on with our day and, you know, we wouldn’t have had this opportunity so much before, COVID, I mean, well we, to be fair, we did, but it just wasn’t as socially accepted.

Lauren: and now we’re also seeing, you know, people, connect with with others who are further away. and. When life gets busy, you know, I still have some piano students who learn online and it works really effectively for them. It wouldn’t work for everyone. but when it works, it’s brilliant.

Caitlin: Yeah, because I’m just thinking when, I learned piano, and this was before Covid and then during Covid, my, of course, yeah. It was a similar thing. My, piano teacher, could we do it in person? I can’t remember. Queensland was a bit weird at like. It wasn’t the same, rules as everywhere else.

Lauren: Out dirty Southerners wouldn’t let us.

Caitlin: that’s,

Lauren: And you just, and I was very jealous.

Caitlin: yeah. I know. It was, oh, it was really, nothing. It was hard.

Lauren: Townsville ’cause I, I’m studying with, James Cook University and it was during a period of reduced restrictions. I flew in and we all got off the plane and the police were there to greet us, just to check that we all had our documentation and it was quite confronting.

Caitlin: That’s, it’s so confronting, isn’t it, because it’s. Something that we we’re so like fortunate to be where we are that we don’t, yeah. That’s not something that we have to contend with. My husband actually traveled during that time, unfortunately head of, death in the family. So he had to go back to Korea, an emergency, yeah.

Caitlin: Visa thing and he said, yeah, just traveling. It was wild. Like people going around in haz man suits and. It just sounded like, Apocalypse World, but yeah. But then to be treated that way

Lauren: Yeah,

Lauren: totally.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But tell me more about, like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and the music industry and what you found.

Lauren: Absolutely. Well, I, and I think this applies to the arts beyond the music industry as well. If we think about Maslow’s hierarchy as having, there are multiple different models of it. I really like the one that has eight levels. it kind of finished off on his behalf after he died because people found Maslow’s Notebooks and sort of, inferred where he was heading with it.

Caitlin: Right.

Lauren: We have physiological and safety needs at the bottom. Then we have belonging and esteem needs, and all those four are called the deficiency needs. So we need those things just to really sustain life.

Lauren: Now, you might say you can live with low self-esteem and without belonging, but, it, the quality of life at that point is, is pretty low.

Lauren: Then beyond that, we have what he called the growth needs, which would be cognitive needs, aesthetic needs, and the needs for self-actualization and self-transcendence. Now, self-actualization is about becoming as good as possible at something. And self-transcendence. It sounds very woo, but it’s, it’s about experiencing this sense of unity and oneness with the world.

Lauren: And I like to think of it as the point where we turn around from the mirror, where we’ve been looking at ourselves and we look out at the world and we see how we can contribute

Caitlin: That’s beautiful.

Lauren: Yeah, no, it’s a really lovely, conception that he had of that. he’s not suggesting that we have to fulfill all those needs in order.

Lauren: That’s a common misconception of the pyramid. He’s not saying everything has to be perfect before you move up to the next one. It’s not like a video game with levels. he does make the argument, and I think it’s, it’s a valid one that, for example, if your physiological need for food is unmet, it’s gonna be really difficult to, focus on learning to fulfill your cognitive needs.

Lauren: In World War ii, we see examples of people who had so many of their basic needs severely compromised and, and yet had these incredible experiences of self-transcendence where they very self selflessly would help the people around them.

Lauren: So it can be done, but I think you’d probably agree those are. Are the exception to the rule and probably sustainable, but just what emerges in a state of emergency. So in terms of the, the creative and performing arts, what I’ve seen is that I. As an occupation, as a paid, you know, vocation, it doesn’t necessarily do a great job of fulfilling the bottom four, the, the deficiency needs because the work is precarious because the income is generally low, and the work is inadequate.

Lauren: You know, I, I think we probably, I can’t. Say this definitively, but I, I believe we have more people who are trying to work in the creative and performing arts than that industry can sustain with full-time incomes. So there just isn’t enough work to go around for everyone who wants it. and so for, for those reasons, those bottom needs can be, yeah, just go really unmet.

Lauren: And I mean, I know that there’s a degree of esteem that can come from performing and, and the, you know, nice feedback you get all of that sort of thing. But I think over the long term, if, if you are doing the hustle and you’re working really hard and you’re just not, getting to the point where your career is stable, I think that really starts to eat away at you.

Lauren: And will impact your esteem in the long run, especially when you then want to do things like have a family, you know, maybe buy a house. Not that I’m suggesting home ownership is the be all and end all, but you know, you start to have to choose between your career and the typical life milestones that you see your peers experiencing.

Lauren: What the arts does very well is to support those top needs in both the audience and in, performers. the need for beauty, the need to be mentally challenged, whether that’s through, learning theory and mastering and instrument, or whether that’s, you know, the way that the arts makes us think in, in ways that nothing else does, you know?

Lauren: Joy.

Lauren: Yeah, so I, I think that, and this is why I come back to slash careers as a really helpful way forward, helping people to see that those bottom needs, there are other ways that I can more efficiently and effectively meet my needs. I. While using music, or whatever art form that they’re passionate about to fulfill those higher order needs.

Lauren: Now, I’m also not saying that musicians shouldn’t be paid. An artist shouldn’t be paid. I, I very much believe that if you are performing at a professional level, and especially if someone has asked you to come and do your thing, that you should be paid. but. This might be controversial, but the world doesn’t owe artists an income.

Lauren: Just because you do art, just because it’s good, does not mean you’re entitled to an income from that because we have the, the forces of the market and is there actually demand for what you do? Maybe there is, but maybe there isn’t. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t do it, but it means you shouldn’t expect the income from it.

Caitlin: must be a harsh truth to hear for some people. Mm,

Lauren: when I first started thinking that, I think I pushed it out of my mind a little bit and, and sort of, it’s not gonna be a popular thing to tell people, but I think we need to be more honest with, with artists, their career prospects. there’s a lot of what my husband and I refer to as Dream Merchanting that goes on in the industry.

Lauren: It’s that whole idea of come and learn from me and I’ll make you a star.

Caitlin: Hmm. And yeah, Tim had an experience of that in the voice, right, because that’s literally what it’s about, isn’t it? Like they choose people and.

Lauren: Yeah, I, I see what you mean. But I couldn’t honestly say that the show gave him that impression.

Caitlin: Okay. That’s interesting. Yeah. Maybe it’s just how it’s edited or something like that.

Lauren: Yeah. there’s an element that, that comes from the general public. But I, I do have to say that I felt like they were ethical in the way they talked about the opportunities that might come from that or that might not.

Lauren: Oh, cool. That’s good.

Lauren: definitely have some problematic cultural narratives around arts careers

Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Lauren: of being extraordinary.

Caitlin: Hmm.

Lauren: I. The other day, and it was talking about, accepting the simple joy of a, of an average life. And when we see a child, especially a child or a young person, and they are really gifted in a particular creative domain, we can inadvertently give them really unrealistic expectations of their future.

Lauren: And that’s certainly what happened to my husband growing up in different contexts. That whole, you know, because he, he was obviously a very good singer, and people would do the whole, oh, you’re gonna be famous, you’ll be on tour. You know, and, and so when these things don’t transpire, it can lead people to feel like an utter failure

Caitlin: Yeah,

Lauren: there’s research that has found that beyond a certain level of competency, the success that people have is largely down to luck. You know, it might be that that lucky break they get, you know, you think about Justin Bieber, his video being found on YouTube. I think it was Usher.

Lauren: how many people just as talented as Justin Bieber have videos on YouTube that never get discovered?

Caitlin: Yeah. Wow, that’s such a good point as well.

Lauren: there’s a really great book, by Musgrave and Gross that, they’re from researchers from the uk. It’s called Can Music Make You Sick? And one of the points they make in that is that pursuing a music career, and their mentality that goes behind that has some overlap with the mentality behind problem gambling.

Caitlin: Huh. Wow.

Lauren: So, you know, the whole, if I, if I just keep doing this, my, my big break will happen soon, or my big win will happen soon. and of course it does happen to some people, and that’s part of the problem is that people will see, well, that it worked for that person. But what they don’t see is all the people it didn’t work for.

Lauren: Because they’re not really in the media. we don’t, we don’t have a, a news article about, you know, unknown musician does. Gig is very good, but no one really cares. We see Taylor has a tour.

Caitlin: So that’s it. And that’s even, I think, a really nice thing to like, for the listener takeaway as well. Like just because your business or something like that might not be as big as another business, it doesn’t mean that they’re doing a better job than you. It just might mean that Yeah, like PR or something that, that for some reason they worked with someone that then refers them more work and they get their name out some way.

Caitlin: It’s not necessarily a reflection of Yeah, like who you are or what you are, how you are doing.

Lauren: It’s not merit based, not in the slightest.

Caitlin: I think that’s my, I’ve got a little notepad here and I’ve been writing down all your, your quotes. I really, I really love chatting with you. It’s been, excellent.

Lauren: Five years of PhD thinking. So now captive audience, I can tell them all my feelings.

Caitlin: All our insights and, that leads like.are you gonna write a book or something like that? Is that, how are you gonna distribute your learnings?

Lauren: I’ve started my own substack. I have one post on there so far. I actually started

Caitlin: good one.

Lauren: Yeah, well, I, it just came to me one day and I thought, I’m gonna start with this because I feel like anyone who gets that poem, they’ll really resonate with the other stuff that I’ll be talking about on there.

Lauren: So that’s the, plan for the immediate future, is to develop the content on there. perhaps when I’ve finished my thesis, I might feel like writing a bit more. but I, I certainly have a sense that this is a message people need to hear and. You know, we were talking earlier that, feeling nervous and, and all of that kind of thing.

Lauren: I, I get up to talk or I go to write and I think, oh, who wants to listen to me? I’m such a weirdo and I’m just crazy and quirky and all of those things. And then I think, well, hang on. It’s not, it’s not about me at this point. It is about the people who are out there who. Come up with extraordinarily creative work that is so life giving and so beautiful and so challenging, and yet they feel like no one gives a shit.

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s, that’s devastating, isn’t it? That’s what the world needs. Is those Yeah. Interesting. Quirky, like quote unquote weird. Perspectives I feel that. But like it comes back to what you were saying and it’s now bigger than you. It’s bigger than that. Do you feel a sense of responsibility now?

Lauren: It’s a really good way of putting it. You know, I’ve got this information, I can’t just keep it to myself. ’cause as I said, when I started this, my first reaction was, why didn’t anyone tell us that this was going to be hard? I.

Caitlin: Yeah, and because then it’s about making an informed choice. Like it might be like, okay, well, it just means that. I have to get another job or something like that, or I have to do something else, or I don’t internalize the fact that I haven’t had my big break. Now that doesn’t say something about me, which is huge.

Caitlin: Like even just that in itself is massive. Mm-hmm.

Lauren: Absolutely, and, and also it, it empowers people to really think intentionally about their careers. And as you do not feel like a failure when they don’t become that full-time touring musician. and to, to recognize the dynamics of the industry that, that are at play that they have no control over, but also to not give up on.

Lauren: Their creativity because as you say, we, the world needs it. I think it’s so important that we, we have a variety of voices out in the public domain. I mean, Taylor Swift, all those big people, they’re great. Good luck to them. But we’d be all poorer if our music only reflected, the top 20 artists in the world.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And it’d be, yeah, a bit. I. Boring as well, but we need the diversity. That’s it. Oh, I’ve love this, conversation. Before we, wrap up, I, have a few rapid fire questions that I forgot to tell you about before we started and so, I very appreciative that, you are answering them. but what is your favorite film, Lauren?

Lauren: I think I’d have to say goodwill hunting.

Caitlin: Oh my good film. Yeah. Cool. What do you love about it?

Lauren: I just love that you’ve got this character Will, who has this extraordinary ability. he’s come from very difficult circumstances yet this, this ability persists. but ultimately he chooses humanity over, I don’t wanna say over that gift. I’d like to think he went on and he chased the girl and, and then he, he also had the career, but he, he had his priorities in the right place in a way that was life giving to him.

Caitlin: Yes. That’s, Hmm. Such a good, oh, I really like that film too. And then what about, I feel like this next question, you’re gonna have so many answers to this, but what’s a concert you’ll never forget?

Lauren: I would have to say the John Hanham concert that I went to. It one of those I didn’t even know it was happening till right near it. And I bought tickets on a whim. Our second child was just old enough to leave overnight. And so we dropped our two eldest boys to my parents and you can appreciate the, the logistics involved in all of that.

Lauren: and then we got there and. It was extraordinary. I’ve always been a big fan of, of John’s. I, you know, grew up with his music, obviously. but just watching him in the flesh and there was some, there’s this really. A strange phenomenon that happened throughout the concert where the audience members, particularly women, would walk down to the front and they would reach up and just wanna touch his hand.

Lauren: And because of the height of the stage and whatnot, he actually spent half the concert leaning over and singing. and I’ve just never seen any, it was almost like this pilgrimage to John and it was really amazing to see the way that he welcomed those people. It would’ve been so hard to sing like that, and how meaningful it was for them to have that encounter with him.

Lauren: And I mean, just an extraordinary talent. you know, very. I was gonna say underrated. He’s obviously very popular in Australia, but I don’t think people fully appreciate, what a skilled singer he is.

Caitlin: That’s a good point. There’s a difference between Yeah. Being well known, but then also like people recognizing like the talent as well. Oh, how could it, oh, miss makes me miss going into live gigs. Sorry. But, is, I’m curious to hear your answer to this one, but what’s, an absurd fact about you or something that’s like weird or quirky?

Caitlin: Well, I have two and they’re kind of related. One is I’m a diehard neighbors fan.

Caitlin: Oh wow.

Lauren: For the last, oh, probably more than 20 years, I have watched neighbors faithfully. I remember in my uni days I would call home and I’d be like, I’m not gonna make it back for neighbors. Can you tape it for me? Of course, these days that’s much easier with, catch up TV and when they let, when they askeded it a couple of years ago, I just sobbed through the last episode.

Lauren: and you can imagine my joy when it has returned. so that. You know, filled a big hole that was in my heart, left by neighbors. The other one is that I also really love BC and degrade, extreme weather movies. So not the A Grade ones, not like Twister. That’s too, too good. I mean, I did love it, but you know, the, the worst they are the better.

Lauren: So, particularly. The tornado has like sound effects that make it sound like a groaning human or, you know, the cheesier, the, the less realistic, the things flying through the air. I just love it.

Caitlin: I didn’t know it existed, like it makes sense that it would exist. That’s so excellent. I’m just imagining like there must be like Reddit threads on. So awesome. but oh, this is so fun. Lauren, how can people get in contact with you?

Lauren: They can visit me on Substack, so it is untangling creativity.substack.com. and that is where I will be recording my thoughts and, and. I guess I’m not just about identifying the problems, but about helping people find a new way forward. helping us to redefine what it means to be an artist, and to, to thrive.

Lauren: we need to end this, caricature of the starving artist and replace it with a vision of the thriving artist and thriving communities, full of creativity as well.

Caitlin: Aw, that gives me goosebumps. Oh, it, yeah. I’m so, so like thrilled For what you’re doing and how much of an impact it’s gonna have on so many people. That’s very cool stuff. Yeah, very cool stuff. What would you hope that listeners take away from our conversation?

Lauren: I think it would be if the world doesn’t give a shit about your creativity, make it anyway.

Caitlin: Yeah. That’s nice because that’s often something that people, Worry about is that I. Other people won’t like it or won’t get it or something like that, but do it anyway.

Lauren: Metrics for yourself. Don’t, don’t make your success reliant on what other people think of what you do.

Caitlin: Aw, what a beautiful message and, yeah, makes me feel a bit emotional, so end it with me sobbing.

Lauren: I have that effect on people.

Caitlin: Aw. A good sign, I think. I think that’s a really good sign. but this has been great. Thank you so much for, this and keep in contact.

Lauren: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. I’ve been listening to your other episode, and I just can’t wait to hear more from your healers with hustles.

Caitlin: Thank you so much. Makes me, all warm and fuzzy. Thanks so much.

Caitlin: All right. That’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning into Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favor and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, and you’ll be the first to know as soon as the new episode drops.

Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, for now.