Late ADHD diagnosis and becoming herself: Johanna Badenhorst’s shift from psychologist to coach

Johanna: I try and challenge myself constantly or just, yeah, do, do more. this is where I probably have to just put on the break sometimes because I, I am one to wanna do it all and have even more of an impact or, provide even more free things for free.

Johanna: And I, I recognize that, you know, there’s needs to be boundaries in place in order to actually protect that energy and, and ’cause. When I do have more self-doubt or I, I lose, lose, the clarity is often when I’ve just overwhelm myself so much.

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their healthcare hats for nonclinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist, turn copywriter, and this is healers with hustles.

Caitlin: Now I’m really looking forward to introducing my guest, today, a follow podcaster actually. the wonderful Joanna Badenhorst, who’s a psychologist, A DHD coach and podcast host of A DHD, her way, diagnosed with A DHD later in life. She supports high achieving women and mothers, create rhythms that work for them, align with their values, and feel more connected to themselves. Joanna combines her professional expertise and lived experience to offer compassionate, practical strategies that truly resonate with the A DHD journey.

Caitlin: Wonderful. Now I must apologize if you can hear background noise. I’m recording this, while I’m outside in the streets of Seoul, so it might be a little bit loud. This intro, I should say.

Caitlin: anyway, back to the show. Beautiful. Well, welcome to Healers with Hustle, Joanna.

Johanna: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Caitlin: Yeah. Thank you so much for, coming on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. Now, you are a psychologist. and so I’m always curious to hear, because of course psychology is such a, a long journey and there’s so many different ways to become, you know, to become a psychologist.

Caitlin: But I’m curious to hear about you and your story and why you decided to become a psych.

Johanna: Yeah, sure. yeah, I know. it’s a long journey, isn’t it? It’s takes a while before. You can call yourself a psychologist, and I knew for a long time that I had a real passion for supporting people. I had that from a very early age back in primary school where I was already handing out like kids helpline stickers and things like that, doing a presentation on it instead of, you know, other people might have done their presentations on things like,my favorite pet dog or like, I was doing it.

Johanna: You know, in grade, I can’t remember what grade it would’ve been, two or three or something. Yeah, it was really early on already doing like, presentations on those kind of topics. So I mean, I knew probably that I was gonna be headed there in one way or another. I diverted a little bit more following my interest in a criminology.

Johanna: So initially that’s what I ended up like enrolling in,after high school, funnily enough. Whilst I’ve got a double in that and psychology, it was more the forensic psychology probably that I, that really picked my interest and.

Caitlin: Wow. Wow. Really? Huh?

Johanna: Yeah. Yeah. And how having also worked in probation, parole for a bit

Caitlin: Oh my

Johanna: other jobs, I realized that no, actually my passion was more working with individuals who really needed the support as part of their kind of early intervention, more for young kids and also in, parents as well.

Johanna: That’s really where I was drawn to more in the end. I finished my degree. I did disability support work and various other roles throughout university, actually into disability support work or some of my favorite roles, and I was then really drawn to supporting, yeah, people with disabilities or.

Johanna: Whether it was intellectual or you know, physical, but especially those developmental, dis you know, disabilities or, differences was really what I was drawn to. And that’s the degree I ended up doing the, the master’s program. And yeah, that’s how I ended up working where I am now with. The women, who are diagnosed or not yet diagnosed, A DHD and A DHD. Yeah, so there has been a bit of a thread throughout. I mean, I was obviously undiagnosed, A DHD myself, and so that’s took some time to be discovered in, in a way, or sorry, identified

Caitlin: Yeah.

Johanna: more formally. But I, I had that understanding of myself being, I guess, different and I didn’t know how to articulate that of course.

Johanna: But as I’ve then gone through my degrees and, and you know, funnily enough, I constantly was faced with a DHD one way or another, whether it was through my babysitting jobs or, you know, with the quite high proactive ADHD boys, probably more so. and then also in my school league career, I did. To work as a school psychologist.

Johanna: So yeah, I’ve had various opportunities to really understand A DHD, but obviously the more typically known A DHD, which is those, yeah, that of young boys, typically that’s what we know for. But yeah, so in a long winded way, I became very passionate to now support women more in a coaching capacity as well.

Johanna: So that’s for

Caitlin: cool. We’ll have to talk about that. Yeah.

Johanna: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s, yeah. What I’m also doing, I suppose, is really bringing that to the more online sphere and also in person sphere, because Yeah, whilst me as a psychologist can, you know, work in a therapy therapeutic space, I recognize that that it has, you know, certain limits, right?

Johanna: Like, it, it. Can obviously deliver a great support to women who have been diagnosed with A DHD or are querying that. But obviously being able to create a really nice nurturing community, it’s much easier done in, in other, in other ways. So, ideally having some in person events, you know, very soon.

Johanna: Yeah. So my, my. Psychology career has really, you know, had its, had its real A DHD impact because I’ve, I’ve changed and, and evolved and gone very different ways. I’m not your classic, psychologist, probably

Caitlin: is great to hear. It’s so cool that you areDoing what you’re doing and would you see yourself as a, like a role model or something like that for other people?

Johanna: I don’t know if I would call it that. I mean, I have a lot of people reaching out to be like, you know, wondering how I’m doing what I’m doing or questioning certain aspects about it in terms of, yeah, diversifying

Caitlin: Yeah. So other psychologists, yeah.

Johanna: Yeah. Allied health professionals are, wondering how that, ’cause I was probably one of.

Johanna: Yeah, quite many psychologists on social media, the number of years ago that was showing up a lot on Instagram and that, and utilizing that space very much as a way of creating more awareness and even marketing, you know, without having any like gross techniques or anything like that. Like

Caitlin: Mm. Yeah, because

Johanna: gross marketing, just really about

Caitlin: so icky.

Johanna: Yeah. So it feels still really ethical, but being able to do that and yeah, in, again, in a non, non-traditional way because the, I found the dropping letters to GPS and all those kind of things to make, create more of that awareness to help people, you know, find out about me. Like that wasn’t necessarily doing all.

Johanna: That much for me. So I wanted to attract people who wanted to work with me. And through

Caitlin: Oh, I love that you say this. Yeah,

Johanna: yeah, it’s been so helpful.

Caitlin: yeah. That’s, because that’s exactly right. That’s why I love social media. It’s because you can connect with Yeah. Like we can attract people who you are best fit for and who wanna work with you and you’re not, yeah, the mercy of, say gps who are not the, maybe gatekeepers, not a bit of a strong word, but Yeah.

Caitlin: There’s like someone in the middle, whereas Yeah, being on social media, you are. But it could also be a bit of a scary thing, particularly for psychologists, because of course, how I train with ethics and how we do things, it’s so, yeah, we’ve gotta be so careful. I mean, there’s a lot of fear around that.

Caitlin: And so I love that you said that you’ve been doing it for ages. Like how, what did that look like when you first started on the platform?

Johanna: yeah. Sure. So. It was probably whilst I was working for another practice, I really supported their social media account. So it, I got to understand a bit more about the ethical boundaries and, you know, how to, I guess, create awareness and share helpful resources, ensuring that they are still viewed as non not therapeutic, individually therapeutic in that.

Caitlin: Yes.

Johanna: it obviously takes a bit of. A specific lens in order to be able to do that. So there, there’s definitely more executive functioning, steps and that that needs to be taken in order to do it without, yeah, I guess risking being too risky, because it, whilst it’s important to, I think, come across as authentic and as you know, upholding obviously all the ethical boundaries and your integrity and all that.

Johanna: There’s a lot of considerations around boundaries. So you do have to set certain things in place from very early on. And so, yeah, that, that is, that is different than a lot of other careers. And you know, things like coaching, a lot of those more unregulated spaces, they have, I guess, a lot more freedoms, right?

Johanna: So certainly it was a bit to navigate. They’ve, since in the last couple of years, come out with a lot better guidelines around how that looks like, and you know. How to navigate this space better, but obviously that’s gonna have to be updated constantly because it’s such a ever changing space, isn’t it?

Caitlin: it’s, isn’t it like constantly like log on and something else happens? It’s, yeah.

Johanna: Yeah. And generally I found Instagram fairly easy to navigate. Like I. I’ve found that with some clear boundaries and clear links as to how to contact me, I’ve been able to navigate that fine. but again, like it’s an individual individual’s process of how to do that. It certainly is about finding your own feet and, and engaging.

Johanna: You know, formal supports, as well to just be informed and just to know where you stand. So yeah, that’s the boring bits, stuff that it, it does, it’s not that exciting to talk about, but it isn’t in

Caitlin: but it’s important though, isn’t it? It’s, yeah. Like the foundation that you’ve gotta get, right?

Johanna: yeah, absolutely. But, but it can be a really great avenue for people to get.

Johanna: Access to information that is more evidence-based and that isn’t just,

Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely.

Johanna: you know, put out there by just, yeah, great. It’s amazing that lots of people with lived experience are sharing that, but I guess that this also opens up to more misinformation as in like, this is equals one. You know, this is one person’s experience.

Caitlin: the thing. It’s a tricky thing, isn’t it? When ev it’s so good that everyone can share their story and everyone can share things, but at the same time, it, yeah, it’s a double-edged sword.

Johanna: Yeah. Yeah. So it is, it’s good that there’s contribution from all kinds of, parties. You know, those with lived experience, but also who may be, have a really kind of good grounding in DSM five or the diagnostic manual. And so it is, it is a unique perspective that I think a lot of people do appreciate.

Johanna: And also, yeah, be able to then attract, like I said before, the types of people that you are inspired to work with and having, I guess that access to reach them in that way is, I think really quite unique. And I often say like, I don’t know if I would be in this position to have this, freedom or this ability to, to.

Johanna: Attracts such amazing women because I would’ve had to do it through word of mouth or through flyers or, you know, like just real traditional thing. I, I think it’s, it’s, it’s such a different landscape, that it was even a few years ago or like, a decade ago where we weren’t using the internet in this way.

Johanna: So, or like through really? Yeah. Email marketing. That’s the, the only way maybe you would’ve reached people, directly in their inbox, but. it is really special that we have this ability to show our face, through video and, and we can have podcasts we, we are quite, privileged in that sense.

Johanna: I

Caitlin: Oh, I love that we’re having this conversation. and you are, I was just thinking your way ahead of Yeah. Your time in terms of like the social media using that and feeling comfy with it. And that’s, it’s really cool. yeah. That you are doing this I. And I was also wondering, ’cause we were talking about the boring quote, unquote boring, the boring stuff.

Caitlin: But I should also imagine that you are quite a creative person.

Johanna: Mm.

Caitlin: Yeah. That, tell me about that.

Johanna: That’s where I probably like to put a lot of my energy because I, whilst I obviously do have things in place for yes, the other administrative and still important things that do need to be attended to, but yes, my creative outlet and the things that require more spontaneity and, and allow me to lead more into those other skills that I have.

Johanna: That’s probably where I feel most comfortable. I’m, I really like to lean into playfulness and the fun, like I really uphold those values really high and creativity also. So for me, those things are so important and so when I, when I have found this outlet or this avenue, I think it’s been really essential in keeping me really engaged and interested as a practitioner too, because it doesn’t lend into so much creativity all that much.

Johanna: Other than creating tools or like, you know, resources and that for clients, like I really enjoyed that part too. But when I felt maybe more uninspired, this, this has kind of allowed me to, I. Blend more of this other side of me that is a bit silly, a bit, you know,

Caitlin: I love that.

Johanna: fun and, and especially when I’ve been, I framed it in a way that, you know, this is, this is me either making fun of myself or, or doing it like kind of lighthearted, like it’s never been too, yes, inappropriately cast shade onto anything or anyone in in particular.

Johanna: but I think it allows people to kind of go, aha, like that form of entertainment or relatability that is different to your typical, we need to, you know, will be very formal. And this is all like, outside of the therapy, you know, it allows for a bit more of the humor and, and those things in there that I think people find also really, really what makes you human, right.

Johanna: So,

Johanna: Exactly that. Human relatable. Yeah. you, who you are in the, probably who you are in the therapy room. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, my creativity when it comes to my actual creating of content, whether it’s like, through just really colorful, bold pic, you know, picture images or the,

Caitlin: yeah. Visuals on your Instagram. I think that’s what I initially reached out to. I.

Johanna: Yes. Yeah. We share quite an a love for bold colors and that, and I think that makes, yeah, well, since I’ve lent into that too, for my brand A DHD, her way, I find that it’s allowed me to express myself more authentically, because I realize that when I’ve gone for BRE brand colors, the blushes, whilst I know it’s your classic A DHD, like masking, isn’t it that. For me to be really creative, authentic, like I much more lean into the really bold color, like, you know, bold lettering, bold colors, all those speak to me so much more. I find ’em so much more interesting and they stand out a lot more. Whereas it’s like your classic aesthetic, you know, aesthetic where it’s, that feels to a lot of people, it looks so pretty and it’s date and.

Johanna: I’ve also lent it out for sure, but probably to appeal to the masses almost. And that wasn’t necessarily truly me. it’s so funny that I’ve had such stark difference in terms of the content I’ve created over the time on Instagram that I’ve learned, you know, lent more into the real feminine. and whilst that served this purpose, and I still back that wholeheartedly, but I, I guess I felt much more at ease when I’ve just been.

Johanna: Able to not be so pri and proper and, and you know, I’ve, I’ve been more dopamine dressing as in like worn colors and things that have been more representative of my personality. I.

Caitlin: Yeah. is that something that maybe at the start of your career or the start of when you’re doing private practice, you probably would’ve been a bit of maybe afraid to do, or that would would’ve been something that you’d be like, oh no, I’ve gotta, yeah, I’ve gotta do it this way, because that’s the quote unquote, like proper way or something like that.

Caitlin: But now that you’re Yeah, you are leading your own path and

Johanna: Yeah,

Caitlin: it, yeah. Your way.

Johanna: That’s right. I most definitely have gone, especially in a private practice environment, I have, you know, really stuck to a certain type of dress, aesthetic or color, color coordinated with my therapy room, whatever. Like I know it sounds so silly, but it is. It is. When I’ve put that. Image out there of this is the type of, you know, look that I have or, through the branding photo shoot that I originally did.

Johanna: Whilst I still love those colors, the blushes, the pinks, and the beige is, I guess again, it’s not really me normally they necessarily compliment my skin or you know, those colors, psychology of color and all that. They don’t tend to be the ones that bring out the best in my actual complexion either. So.

Johanna: It’s even a bit silly from that perspective to necessarily dress in those colors too. Like they don’t, they don’t necessarily compliment my complexion so well. So from that perspective, it also didn’t do me a whole lot of good. but yeah, so when I’ve gone, that will bland and, and again, I go through that all the time, which I think is classic for my A DHD like, or like, I just, the variety in what I like and that changes constantly.

Johanna: And in the house you’ll see it. Through my house. That’s why I’ve gone for a largely white in my house because in my therapy room, same kind of thing, they are ones that I’m renting. So I, I don’t have a whole lot of freedom as to what to do there. But yeah, I usually, yeah, I, I’ve probably gone for a very, if you look through my house, very bland kind of colors, but that’s so I can dress it up, you know, if I want to.

Johanna: And I also know that ultimately I’ll probably change my mind too soon. If I went for a bright color, I’ll probably get bored of

Caitlin: That’s it, like hot pink wall and you.

Johanna: I’ve definitely been tempted, trust me. But I know that I’ll probably, that’ll just drive me too. So I think being able to dress something up, like when you have a bit of a blank canvas, right, it does allow you to then dress it up and yeah. So I often do that through, I’m not wearing any at the moment colorful earrings, but I often do that through really colorful, big earrings and stuff like that.

Johanna: But again, I’ve gone through periods where I’m like, Ugh, is that too much? Like, is that too distracting? from.

Caitlin: Yes.

Johanna: Yeah. So I guess it is just making up your own decisions around it, the typically the people who you probably like, wanna work with, they would, they would probably appreciate those things, right.

Johanna: If they are so bothered by that. I don’t think, they don’t think you are professional for having a certain, like, heck, I, I’ve been playing right with having a bit of like pink through my hair and

Caitlin: Oh, beautiful.

Johanna: But if that comes across as unprofessional or, you know, obviously there’s a limit to it, but like with certain things, certainly I think that it says more about than whether it’s a good fit or not.

Johanna: So it’s such a great fit, right? If, if you’re not able

Caitlin: love that you said that.

Johanna: mm-hmm.

Caitlin: there’s so many different flavors of, yeah. Even like the whole thing. Yeah. Professionalism, being professional equals like, being boring or being like, you know, a LinkedIn post, it’s like so dull and drab, It’s definitely, that’s definitely something that I hope to.

Caitlin: not discredit, but hope to bust myth about what professionalism looks like because you’re so right. Like you know all about it with marketing. You wanna attract the people who are, are best fit for you. And if you’re putting out an image that’s like, I’m just kind of buttoned up serious person, but then I come into my therapy room and I’m wearing like Gorman, like this, it might not, it might just create that sense of, disconnect from the start.

Caitlin: And so. I think it’s cool that you, you say that, but it’s, but was there a little bit of self-doubt there in, at the start?

Johanna: Yeah. Or like still frequently it does come up, it’s, it’s definitely impostor syndrome, I think is something that. Comes up constantly, especially for those of us who have maybe at times experienced lower self-esteem or, you know, for neurodivergent people, there is a lot of, rejection sensitive dysphoria that comes up unintentionally, where we go, oh, what if like, this isn’t, doesn’t land well, or I, I have tried my best over the years to be more comfortable with myself

Johanna: From my body to the way I dress, to the way I show up in sessions or with, you know, with people online that, it is a lot of imposter syndrome that can come up every time. Yeah. You’re stepping into something new or into something different. So, and because I am someone who does like to step into various different spaces, whether it’s professionally, but also personally, but yeah.

Johanna: Like going more to speaking events and things like that. I think understandably.

Caitlin: You are like doing it anyway. You’re like, yeah, there’s a lot of self doubt. Imposter shouldn’t join, but I’m gonna do it anyway.

Johanna: that’s right. Exactly. Not to overthink those things. I think it’s so crucial because if that stops you from being able to show up for those people who desperately need it or you know, you’re trying to have a really positive impact on like is, that’s more important right.

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s it. Do you practice from a, like an act, like framework

Johanna: Yeah. Yeah,

Caitlin: Yeah, talking about like values and I was like, it sounds, yeah. Yeah.

Johanna: I do come back to that a lot. I find that that is one of the more helpful. Frameworks that I find I lean into for myself and also, yeah, for the people I work with. Like I find that act mindfulness is something that I probably draw on some of the most, and compassion focused as well.

Caitlin: Compassion is so good. Isn’t.

Johanna: So that those systems and that I draw on a lot too, which makes a lot of sense again, with when it comes to and even neuro divergence like, you know, have supposedly having the theoretical like drive and soothing system and threat system, it does kind of simplify and help to Yeah. Signify where.

Johanna: We may ADHD is going overdrive. And then, you know, where we ha that inner critic, that RSD that kicks up is that threat system you fight or flight that we really need more self-compassion in order to manage our expectations and, and be kinder to ourselves. I think that, yeah, is is very personally very helpful to.

Caitlin: Hmm.

Johanna: stop being in my tracks Sometimes when I’m about to have one of those moments where I’m like, what am I even doing? Or.

Caitlin: So I know the ones, yeah, but how cool that you can, like, I know it’s helpful for yourself, but then also you can help other people in your community.

Johanna: Yeah, absolutely. And I find that, yeah, when I. And being vulnerable, and when I’m just admitting that like I’m still, you know, working through all this, that I’m human still. None of us are perfect. None of us have got it all figured out and have all the systems in place that we need to in order to cope and, and to thrive.

Johanna: There’s still a lot of inner work that I’m constantly doing and, and because I am someone who doesn’t, isn’t very comfortable with, with just bruising along just. Doing the same thing for some time. I try and challenge myself constantly or just, yeah, do, do more. this is where I probably have to just put on the break sometimes because I, I am one to wanna do it all and have even more of an impact or, provide even more free things for free.

Johanna: And I, I recognize that, you know, there’s needs to be boundaries in place in order to actually protect that energy and, and ’cause. When I do have more self-doubt or I, I lose, lose, the clarity is often when I’ve just overwhelm myself so much.

Caitlin: yes. But it comes from a place of ’cause I can hear that it’s really important for you creative creatively and like it’s something that you really enjoy doing, but then also there’s like that limit, right?

Johanna: Yeah,

Caitlin: Is that how the podcast came about then? Your a DH, her way that it was something that you wanted to share with a lot of people and podcasting seems like it’s a, a natural

Caitlin: Thing to do.

Johanna: Yeah, absolutely. I, funnily enough, I was just reflecting on this as I was, putting my new webpage together. ’cause again, that was something that, you know, why not just add a second side? And then, so now at A DHD, her way that has like a separate, website. And that also for the purpose that it’s really clear that I, I at this stage in my career am really serving two separate, groups almost so that it’s really clear that is separation.

Johanna: I’ve made that choice very consciously, but as I was doing that, I was reflecting on like, oh yes, the podcasting, I. Used to sit in a caravan as a child and as my, in my family caravan, I would just sit there dormant for parts of the year, obviously just in our shed. And I would sit in there pretending to like host, like radio and, and back when the cassette tapes you had to like rewind and record and kind of talk over that.

Johanna: Pretend to be like this

Caitlin: Ah, I forgot about, yeah, just jogging some memories, but yeah.

Johanna: Yeah, and I would just do that for ages and like I would, I had no other equipment really. It wasn’t, it was just more like, imaginary play essentially. But I thought it was just fun and, and I was always quite, supportive or like I tuned into radio and music and that a lot. And I did always,

Johanna: Admire those who were really confident on the mic and I was like, wow, imagine that you doing that. I don’t think I could ever just talk, in the moment and just be able to share things that people really wanted to listen to or be interested. So yeah. But then people kept. Bringing that idea to me of like, you sound like you’ve a bit, quite a bit to share or haven’t you thought about, starting your own podcast or something.

Johanna: You’ve gone on a couple now yourself and it sounds great. Like, why don’t you do something like that? I mean, there’s plenty around. Sure. Right. The market’s now, they’re fairly saturated with different podcasts and stuff. There’s a lot of choice around, so I’m in no denial that there’s quite a number of us there, but.

Johanna: Everyone’s got a different perspective. Everyone’s got something unique to share. So I do think that whilst podcasts, yes, there’s lots out there. So there’s many that probably stop at, at some stage. And

Caitlin: Yeah, exactly.

Johanna: so, you know, the, the landscape is constantly changing. It’s, it’s not like, yeah, other people are stopping you.

Johanna: You can start your own podcast. I, there’s no real like time that you should have started it. I mean, sure, you may have. You had a more unique kind of strategy there if you’d started a number of years ago. Sure. Like I obviously wasn’t that early to the game either, but I don’t think, yeah, pick your, pick your kind of avenue.

Johanna: I picked podcasting ’cause I’m not necessarily, again, writing is not something that I’m

Caitlin: Mm.

Caitlin: as versed in. Like English is also not my first language. So for me, talking verbally always has been a bit easier than writing. was your, what’s your first language? Like your native language?

Johanna: Yeah, so I, I grew up speaking only Dutch. I only learned English when I was about 12.

Johanna: And so, whilst we do learn it a little bit, like tiny bits of it. When, when you’re in, in Holland, people are fairly good at speaking English, but it was very broken. I can tell you when I first moved here, I looked back at the videos, I’m like, oh, no cringe. I, hear myself speak. I’m like, oh my gosh. But of course, like it was fine.

Johanna: I just find that hard to listen back to. But did everything to lose my Dutch accent. It’s not the prettiest of all, so others

Caitlin: Oh

Johanna: oh, why did you lose it?

Caitlin: You don’t like the Dutch accent?

Johanna: Honestly, if you listen to this compared to other accents, it’s definitely one of the more harshest sounding. So anyway, that is something that again, yeah, I had a lot of, concerns around like how I would sound, you know, that again came up as something like whilst I once to be creative, I do know that I say certain words a lot in my speak and I.

Johanna: Do you think that the neurodivergence is to blame for that? Because I

Caitlin: What words do you use often?

Johanna: like, I mean, that’s also a very millennial thing, but

Caitlin: Oh yeah. Like what? Yeah.

Johanna: So, but

Caitlin: raising my head here.

Johanna: my thinking is that for those who are neurodivergent, asking if the other person understands by saying, you know, question mark or, Hmm. S it is like as in like always being conserved. The other person may not understand. So you’re giving similarities or you are comparing like that. That I think is where it comes from, from probably not being understood always or fearing that the other person may not be able to relate or understand.

Johanna: So I wonder if we we’re unintentionally doing this, and I have noticed that as I’ve been podcasting a lot of neuro virgin

Caitlin: Hmm.

Johanna: certainly those who. Again, I don’t have any stats around this, but I do, I have noticed it’d be where maybe we were more nervous too, more likely to have use filler words as a, preventing us saying from, and I might use something else instead.

Johanna: But that, that’s probably quite common that Yes, I think especially the wanting to make sure that the other person understands. So you would use things like, like, or. Do you understand what I mean? Or does that make sense? So

Caitlin: mm Yeah.

Johanna: or things that I think would come up a lot more in the neurodivergent community.

Caitlin: Yeah. That’s so interesting that you say that. I was immediately thinking about when I was. Going through my masters and I would constantly get pulled up from my supervisors because I wasn’t confident enough. I’m not confident, I don’t sound confident and ’cause I, yeah, I use filler words galore and Yeah, and always say like, I guess, or, you know, or things like that and.

Caitlin: Part of me is like, yeah, okay, maybe I, you should be a bit more confident and like take away those, those hedge words. But at the same time I’m like, fuck you. Like,

Johanna: Hmm.

Caitlin: how I want. Swear. But

Johanna: No, no, absolutely. It’s, it’s, I find it, it’s so unhelpful once they put such a like highlight on it too. I understand why there, there is certain critiques, but there’s definitely kind of ways of framing that and I think that through university, the same thing happened to me with counseling skills. I remember that was one of the ones that I did really well in a lot of the other subjects because I worked incredibly hard unnecessarily.

Johanna: I was a bit of a perfectionist and. I still continue to be more, less so now than I was when I was in uni, I think. But as a student, yeah, I was incredibly like hard on myself, but also the critique and the feedback was often quite. Harsh or abrasive or like, look, just came across that way and, and sometimes I’m productive.

Johanna: You know, it was like things that you were getting marked on and, and again, now looking back, I’m like, well, everyone does those kind of skills differently. Like my.

Caitlin: Hmm. Exactly.

Johanna: it, it, it’s probably not the most neurodiversity affirming practice to test people on certain things that obviously they have a different way of showing empathy, a different way of showing them micro counseling skills or things that obviously now knowing what I know, I was an incredible copier, but also I.

Johanna: I find it hard if there’s no clear criteria of like what exactly they’re looking for, of how to demonstrate those skills, it’s pretty harsh to then judge someone on it to be like, no, these are things that you should have observed in these videos that we’ve supplied to you. The criteria it, it try to just not overthink it.

Johanna: It’s like, oh my goodness, I’m literally getting tested on these skills that you want to see, but I don’t understand the.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Johanna: the exact ways that I need to demonstrate or when I need to demonstrate those skills. So obviously I totally overthought that and, and made the, you know, whatever session I was trying to demonstrate too clunky or too many ums and ahs.

Johanna: I don’t know. But anyway, it, it is just interesting that they historically and probably still continues to be not the most neurodiversity, firming lens on a lot of

Caitlin: at all. And it’s like psychology, like with, yeah, it just blows my mind. Every time I hear about stuff like this, I’m just like, oh, really? Breaks my heart. How do you think that’ll change? Because of course the new guidelines come into effect at the end of the year, and there’s a big part on neurodiversity and being neurodiversity affirming.

Caitlin: I wonder if that’ll, they’ll have to change the programs then, won’t they?

Johanna: Oh yeah, absolutely. How much disability was brought up. I mean, luckily I did the Masters where that was actually a. No decent component of it, but certainly for others there really wasn’t much focus and certainly wasn’t in undergrad. Like it certainly got mentioned and it got sunlight, but autism, A DHD for instance, wasn’t really covered all that much, or not in, in very pathologizing ways as well, you

Caitlin: Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Johanna: wasn’t a very strength-based at all.

Johanna: Like it wasn’t strength-based and it certainly wasn’t like how to, how many it was really. Yeah. Again, not, not anywhere near as form, but also because the DSM five has since significantly changed and will probably have more revisions, I dare say. So certainly it is just gonna continue changing the way that we, but also how students are assessed as well.

Johanna: Like that needs to be inside the degree, but also like that needs to probably change too. Or

Caitlin: Yes, it has to.

Johanna: it’s, you know, what the content is involved and then Yes. What kind of skills they’re, they are sent with,

Caitlin: Hmm.

Johanna: practice in, in the community. So yes, unless you’ve had really good supervision and all the rest of it and, and have turned to, like, I’ve got now a really nice peer community of a lot of neurodivergent psychologists, and I’ve learned a lot from them.

Johanna: I’ve sought out my own supervision. And training. And that’s been hugely beneficial because we certainly got, there was a lack of that, I suppose, and not due to necessarily anyone’s fault. obviously we know different now and so we’re doing different. But yeah, I really hope that for future generations of psychologists, they have a very different training experience when it comes to this, and it’s a lot more affirming practice when it comes to

Caitlin: Yeah. I really hope so too because yeah, it, it needs to change it. It has to change. It’s.

Johanna: Yeah.

Caitlin: It’s so great that there are people like you that are doing what you are doing, and so you’re already changing things like

Johanna: Yeah. Yes.

Caitlin: Showing up and,

Johanna: yeah, those kind of small ripples and, and supporting people to, whether it’s practitioners or, you know, also the empowering the individuals to ask what they need in the therapy room or outside of the therapy room, like what the, what their needs are and, and how to. Get their needs met.

Johanna: So yeah, I think that’s really crucial for us to empower A DHD as DH, D as all people from, with all different neuro types

Caitlin: Yes.

Johanna: and all different chronic health conditions. all those things are still misunderstood or, or, yeah, we don’t have enough supports in place either.

Caitlin: Exactly.

Johanna: you know, for them to be able to turn to.

Johanna: So yeah, still, still developing space. But yeah, it is exciting to be part of that and to witness other psychologists doing amazing work. Like there’s so many in this, space right now that are doing some amazing work with a PS or with other organizations. A API, like there’s so many doing amazing work sharing.

Johanna: Content out there, or you know, be able to hold trainings for other professionals so they can upskill. And I think we need to take that into our own hands. And you know, as in

Caitlin: Yes.

Johanna: you know, it’s our responsibility to do those things as a practitioner. So that’s what I’ve really been trying to do this past couple of years is to really train up and to.

Johanna: Really grow personally and professionally. I think that’s been really like it’s been a learning, like massive learning curve.

Caitlin: Yeah. Oh yeah. He, yeah. I should imagine that was actually one of my, one of my questions. so it’s a beautiful segue into that. What are your biggest, like learnings from your journey, not even on your podcast, but just in general, about what you’ve learned and over the past few years?

Johanna: Yeah, because I’ve also only diagnosed as A DHD myself, only I. Like three years ago or so.

Caitlin: Oh wow. Oh my

Johanna: I, I guess that’s been a massive part about yeah, what I, then it helped me then shape the direction of my career, of me as a mother, as an

Caitlin: Hmm.

Johanna: It, that was really, and I think for many people tends to be a, a path that, that.

Johanna: Involves a lot of growth, a lot of self-reflection, a lot of realizations about my own own neuro type and what is serving me, what isn’t serving me. So that I think has probably been what obviously had set the stage for. Be a bit of a career change almost, or you know, that involving other platforms, avenues of reaching people that I would’ve never thought about before, like if it wasn’t for the my own diagnosis, that journey.

Johanna: And yeah, so I think I’m yet to go and grow a whole lot more still, but. I’m really grateful that, as hard as that’s been, for various reasons, it’s not, definitely not been easy. And if anyone, these from the outside that there’s so many great things happen, like, and obviously a lot of sacrifices have happened as well.

Johanna: So, but being able to learn to accept that, again, I can’t show up in every way as well as I once did. You know whether it’s been Yeah, personal. Friendships and things like that. I guess that’s where, I would like to put more focus again this year because that is something that I, again, put on the back burner a bit so that I could really make work kind

Caitlin: Yes.

Johanna: it fit really well, like, you know, do a lot of the work there to set up your own business and that takes a lot of time and energy, but.

Caitlin: it? Yeah.

Johanna: Unfortunately, I didn’t have enough brain space really to fit

Caitlin: No.

Johanna: other than like hanging out with smart other mums or something or other professionals. But again, I don’t want that to necessarily be my life going forward. so, but I did lose myself again, my identity a bit in the business a bit too much.

Johanna: Pulling myself out of that, seeing as like something that I do need to create better boundaries around. Like that’s been a massive learning. So whilst the learning about myself, about my own neuro type and that, that’s been obviously massive. Also, I’d say that boundaries part, I think a lot of people do talk about.

Johanna: But it is something that is so, so hard to find what works and it changes constantly of,

Caitlin: Mm-hmm.

Johanna: know, what was serving me once upon a time or what I was really energized by, may not energize myself entirely the way I it once did. You know, so just getting used to that and that my brain kind of works that way.

Johanna: That for some people it, it hits the mark and they can be in a therapy space and see people one-on-one for decades and they love it and yeah, and it’s the client, same client group. or similar for me. On the other hand, I, I don’t work that way. Like my brain needs variety and I need to have different outlets.

Johanna: I need to. Show up in different spaces and collaborate with other professionals and that in order to feel like I’m having the impact and I’m being energized by

Caitlin: that’s so important, right? Yeah, exactly. Like, well, yeah, you, but.

Johanna: hand quickly. So, you know, that’s the big, but it’s like, it’s harder to put time constraints around that as opposed to I’m turning up to work in this capacity and for these hours, like

Caitlin: true. So relate with that. Exactly. Because you go into business and it’s like, I’m gonna be doing this 24 7, like

Johanna: Yes,

Caitlin: all the time. And particularly if you enjoy it and you find it fun and it gives you something like if it’s the creativity or it’s like the, that you are Yeah. Helping other people.

Caitlin: It’s. There are really no lines. And then, but then you’re having to realize, well, actually, to protect my energy, I’ve gotta have some boundaries and some lines.

Johanna: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah,

Caitlin: a learning.

Johanna: to get your head around for sure. I’ve yet to figure out what that is. I’m getting some help from a VA and that’s great. But yeah, so once that is in a bit of a more better rhythm, which I’m exactly working

Caitlin: I like that one. Yeah.

Johanna: With my, yeah, with my coaching clients, creating a better rhythm.

Johanna: but yeah, it is something that yeah, needs constant work and, and revisions and yeah, it’s, it’s something I wouldn’t, wouldn’t pass up. I feel still very privileged to be in this position. However, I do think that it’s lot more mental load as well, so there is definitely those sacrifices.

Caitlin: so true. So true. in saying that, what do you hope. People take away from like our conversation today, like people maybe who are considering divers, diversifying, don’t get the word out. their practice or even people who may be women who are like late diagnosed, H ADHD is, or DH ADHD is.

Caitlin: What would you say to them?

Johanna: So. Perhaps two slightly different conversations, but I’d say probably for the both of them is to take an. In a paced approach. You know, don’t try and overwhelm yourself by learning too much or growing too fast, or, pushing so much pressure on yourself to have it all figured out immediately. So that really applies to both parties, as in those who are still querying and wanna explore that further or wondering about what’s next.

Johanna: Whether they’re a DHD looking for that or whether they are yes. A, a person trying to diversify either way, trying to take it one step at a time and not, you know, and overcomplicating it for yourself by diving into 10 million different books and things and attending all the different trainings at once.

Johanna: Like, I’ve been there a little bit and it, it just leads to more overwhelm. So best off to try and. See it as something that is going to be a process that takes time to figure out, but also not be afraid to start talking out loud about it with people. Whether, yes, it is around more diagnostic process or just feeling like you wanna self-identify all with it and wanna understand it better as a Audi DHD. And. Similar again for those who are wanting to diversify, starting to look at others as inspiration or, yeah, trying to ask those people for questions or whatever, including myself, like, you’re welcome to send me an email or work with me, or whatever if you are interested in learning more about it. There are certainly different.

Johanna: Places that run certain trainings on this. And I think it’s great that there’s more of this out there, I suppose, like it, it does require you to be, I guess, ready to make some big moves and it might be more work and more energy and more time and. Again, the rewards may not be there immediately for both situations.

Johanna: Like it’s gonna be create more un a bit more uncertain or like rethinking your priorities, your boundaries, all those things. So certainly once you open that can of worms or once you go down that path, it’s gonna, it’s gonna be messy maybe for a bit until you might find that rhythm that you like, you know, when you are diversifying content, things like that. That certainly can be tricky, but yes, I think for both fairly similar messages in a way, but it, it just, giving yourself, being patient, giving yourself time to figure it out, I think is a really, really important one for both situations. I.

Caitlin: it’s a really important, yeah. Thing that I, yeah. Need to remind myself all the time. Like I wanna, you know, I wanna do all the things all the time, and I want, yeah, I just want it now. But

Johanna: And, and also being proud of the progress you’ve made, you know,

Caitlin: that’s yes.

Johanna: learned so far. I think that we don’t do that enough. I know for myself, I don’t even celebrate the small things enough or how. What I’ve, how far I’ve grown and all that. I think it’s so important that you celebrate that with others around you, or just even acknowledge that for yourself, you know, and making sure that you really recognize that, because we probably don’t give ourselves enough credit,

Caitlin: No, not at

Johanna: of all the energy we’ve put into something thus far, even if it feels like.

Johanna: Things are a mess, or it’s not where you wanted it to be, or like you’re not proud yet of what you’ve created. It’s like, it was just a stepping stone, you know, like, or it was, you know, you’re not there yet, or it, it’s just, it’s, it’s gone a different way than you would’ve maybe anticipated, but it’s gonna be even better, you know?

Johanna: So I think that’s just important to recognize. Again, same thing with diagnosed, like, yes, maybe it would’ve been great if you were diagnosed your entire life. Maybe it would’ve all turned out different. But also it’s possible that there was many reasons why that may not have worked out in your best favor.

Johanna: And now it’s, it’s actually a great time to embrace this journey and to now do that in a work and, ’cause I know from other, from other people I’ve worked with, and, and you know, from what I’ve heard, it’s not necessary that a, a, you know, a life having been diagnosed necessarily. Had been so easy, either because there’s so much stigma still maybe for future generations being diagnosed and having more, better information, access to information, better access to well-informed treatment.

Johanna: I think that will and and, and just management strategies and supports, I think is gonna make a massive difference.

Caitlin: Huge difference.

Johanna: to be able to support neurodiversity so that it becomes a non thing. Like at some stage, it’d just be nice for people just to be able to. Do these things show up unapologetically and,

Caitlin: exactly. And apologize. I love that word too.

Johanna: Yeah.

Caitlin: Exactly. I think lost so many important points in there. One day.

Johanna: But one day, yes. I think we, we are getting better, but yes, Have a lot of self-compassion for yourself at the, at this time where you’re at now, and who knows where the future holds, you know what the

Caitlin: Exactly. Who knows exactly. I really like that you talk about compassion. It’s so, yeah. So important. but before we finish up my, I do a, a segment of rapid fire questions, which is probably like one of my favorite, one of my favorite things because I never know what people are gonna say.

Caitlin: but to start off with, what is your favorite film, Joanna?

Johanna: Yeah, this one’s tricky. I, I’m not very good at picking films at all, but.

Caitlin: Or tv.

Johanna: Yes. Or tv. Okay. TV show, definitely. Schitt’s Creek, I would say that’s easy. Movies I flip between like I don’t have my go-to movie, but I do have my Comfort TV shows for sure. So I say Schitt’s Creek. I feel like I’ve just inner David Voice all the time.

Johanna: And so, yes, for those who are listening and you can probably relate, I just love that show so much.

Caitlin: Yeah. That’s, that’s hilarious. And it’s like the best memes as well, like, or not like, gifs, I often use them. It’s so good. Such a good show.

Johanna: Mm-hmm.

Caitlin: wholesome. and what about like a concert that you’ll never forget? I.

Johanna: Oh gosh. I have been to quite a few that have been amazing, but went to, I been a lifelong, as a child, I was a really massive fan, probably less so now, but as a child, I was a massive fan of Robbie Williams and. I hilarious this tiny, hilarious story. I missed the concert that I’d initially booked because of my own A DSD.

Johanna: I totally misread the actual date of the concert. I was devastated. I booked these tickets for my fa, my dad, and I to go, and I was devastated. So dad kindly rebooked tickets or helped me book some tickets for the following day, but we managed to get some. Last minute tickets from someone who actually had much better seats than we did on the first show.

Johanna: So it so happened that we managed to get tickets to what I thought was the date of the concert. I managed to get right at the front and even managed to, yes, shake hands or something at the time. It was many, many years ago, but I, yeah, I was like, I’m never washing this hand again. but yeah, I don’t know.

Johanna: And funnily enough, I dunno if he’s actually come out as openly a DHD, but, or neurodivergent, but I suspect that he is, or he may, he may have. He’s definitely that hyperactive person on stage. So I, I highly, funnily enough, highly identify with him always. So it, yeah, it’s kind of speaks pretty true. It doesn’t, it as to, I met. Yeah, I thought that was quite funny, that that was who I loved. And then panic at the disco was also a really awesome concept. I got a bit of an inner emo there as well. So yeah, very divergent. Yes, I,

Caitlin: Yes. Which,

Johanna: kind of genres, absolutely. But yes, I’m also going to hopefully see them all at the end of this year, all

Caitlin: yeah. Well, I was gonna say, yeah.

Johanna: I’m very excited, so yes. Yeah, I can. I like so off so many concerts I would say are on the top of the list, but yeah, probably not. Your typical concerts is not, not my vibe. I’m probably lean into more of the millennial, millennial fans.

Caitlin: Yeah, I hear you for sure. and what is a, a, I always have trouble wording this question. What’s an absurd fact about you or something that’s like really quirky about you?

Johanna: I’m really into cults, like as in the love learning about cults. I find them really fascinating. Mm. So people laugh at me all the time when I say this because it’s such a niche, weird thing to be interested in, but I. And then again, I think lots of people find them fa, find them fascinating too. I, I certainly, I spend a lot of time listening to cult podcasts and finding out about, always have, always been very fascinated by the religious cults and, and all types of cults.

Johanna: But

Caitlin: Mm.

Johanna: I think, again, very high, high neurodivergent populations, do fall into the trap of being influenced by cults. So yeah, it, it is something I find really fascinating.

Caitlin: What’s your, and this is not exactly the right thing, isn’t it? Like what’s your favorite, what’s your favorite cult? Like, what’s your favorite? yeah, like who do you,

Johanna: gosh, that’s,

Caitlin: you,

Johanna: gosh, that’s, that’s a hard one. What is my favorite one? The po the podcast I listened to is, that’s so culty. that was probably one of my favorites. But the actual, Is it N xiv? Was that

Caitlin: next him? Yeah. Oh my gosh.

Johanna: found that fascinating, that that

Caitlin: Very fascinating. Isn’t it? Like that guy? Oh my gosh.

Johanna: Yes. What’s his name? It’s escaped my mind,

Caitlin: di deri or

Johanna: yes.

Johanna: Yeah, that’s right. I found that so interesting. And there’s so many more like that. but that one’s at the top and I now, I find so many other religious cults, really, really fascinating as well. And. And also serial killers too,

Caitlin: Mm-hmm.

Johanna: they, sometimes they coincide. There’s, you know,

Caitlin: Yeah. That, yeah.

Johanna: a little bit of overlap.

Johanna: but yes, that, that’s probably, but then also the more, more pop culture ones, like all the swifties and stuff. As much as they probably don’t wanna, I, I

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s such a good point. But they kind of are, they really scare me, like I’m,

Johanna: Yeah. Look. There is obviously people out there who kind of rate them in terms of seriousness as in like risk and probably there’s, there’s very innocent cults out there. You know, we’re all, we can all fall in the trap of being part of cults, like the whole, you know, Instagram, you know, and type of,

Caitlin: some of the gurus and

Johanna: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Johanna: And the trad moms and trad wife. Sorry. And, and yeah, like there’s so many different ones that are probably. A very, you know, bit of watch your back, I think they call it, but not necessarily, you know, really high risk. You know, there’s not high. I think they. Rape cults is like if there’s a big cost of leaving the cult, that is, that is a sign of there being a really, big risk to it.

Johanna: As in like psychological, like black male or, but yeah. So anyway, if there is not, then, then they’re fairly innocent. Like, you know, just tuning into music and, and following along and, and purchasing memorabilia and stuff like that is on the lower end I suppose. It’s not a problematic thing, but yeah. So

Caitlin: but even still thinking about that.

Caitlin: Not so quick firing. Wrap it up. Yeah, that’s probably because I’m like so interested. I’m like, tell me more about this. I love it. but before we finish up, how can people get in contact with you? tell me. Yeah. Everything.

Johanna: Sure. So the best way for people to get in contact with me is probably by either. Going to my website, a adhd.com, and there’s contact form on there or if they want to check out my podcast or appear on as a guest on there, welcome to Reach Out and obviously to work with me. I do. Group coaching and running a group program at the moment.

Johanna: I also do like business consulting or supporting, you know, yeah. People perhaps diversifying or, or trying to learn about executive functioning strategies as an A-D-H-D-R and or an entrepreneur or to, you know, as, as supporting others inside of their business who may be neurodivergent. Also I, like I said, do speaking events and things.

Johanna: So yep, that is something as well. But people can probably find me best on Instagram, otherwise, where I spend quite a bit of time on my personal, or like professional account. A DHD with Johanna B is my Instagram account. And also I’ve got a DHD her way as well, and.

Johanna: They can obviously email me. I’m happy for the contact details to be posted below.

Caitlin: Perfect. Thank you so much for that. I’m so happy. Like I’m, yeah. Every time I talk to Yeah. People like you, I just think wow. I’m so lucky that people like you exist ’cause you’re Yeah. Doing such amazing work. It’s really cool.

Johanna: Thank you. No,

Johanna: yeah. likewise. Thank you for sharing such, you know, good, good things on your podcast and that Yeah, US professionals are all doing things differently and trying to have our impact in different ways. I think that is really important.

Caitlin: Ah, beautiful. Well, thank you so much and I’ll put all the links and everything in the show notes, but otherwise, thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate it.

Johanna: Thank you. Take care.

Caitlin: Thanks.

Caitlin: All right. That’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning into Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favor and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, and you’ll be the first to know as soon as the new episode drops.

Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, for now.