From speech therapy to public relations: A conversation with Nina Dafe about PR

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I’m Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

Caitlin: Right. So my guest today is Nina. So lovely. Nina is the founder and CEO of the fire above Ruby’s collection, where she helps women go from stumped to savvy about how to get PR for their business. And award-winning content marketer, copywriter, and international speaker. Nina has shared the stage with powerhouse women, such as Danielle Scott. And the legendary Sally Ann Roberts.

Caitlin: She’s been featured in thrive global, the TEDx blog, Huff post, Bustle. Black Ballad. Mic and more for her expertise. Wow.

Nina: There’s really big publications. So cool. Welcome to the podcast, so much for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Caitlin: I’ve been following you for a little while and I, feel like I’ve probably known it all along, but I totally forgot that you’re initially trained as a speech therapist.

Nina: Yes.

Caitlin: So yeah, I’d love, love, love to hear all about that. And then maybe your transition or your change into,PR, public

Nina: awesome. Yeah. So yeah, as you said, I was originally trained as a speech and language therapist. So like people listening can probably hear from my accent, born and bred in the UK, but my family background is Nigerian. And I always joke that there’s like a trinity of courses, doctor, lawyer, engineer, you know?

Nina: So originally it was very much, Oh, okay. I want to be a doctor. I think that’s where I probably fit into that trinity, you know? but then, you know, when I did sort of work experience and stuff, it wasn’t quite what I thought it would be. and then fell in love with, with speech therapy, particularly like working with kids and,teaching them and that sort of thing.

Nina: So I went and I did that uni for my undergrad and, graduated. And then my first job was in a school for about five years. five years. And by about the fifth year, I started off really, really loving it. By the fifth year, I was really stressed. I was in my best friend’s classroom. she was a teacher at the school crying almost every day because I was like, just so stressed.

Nina: Support. Yeah. And one day her name is Michelle. I’ll shout to Michelle. She gave me a really stern talking to, and she was very much like, Nina, you have so many talents. And if I had your talents for the way that you communicate, the way that you write, I wouldn’t just be stuck in that office. Like you need to, you need to use that more.

Nina: And that’s actually what kind of started me along the path originally of blogging. So I started off as a blogger. And then a year into blogging was really, really frustrated that I just, I didn’t really, I wasn’t growing as far or reaching as many people as I wanted to. and so that’s when I discovered the whole idea of guest blogging, PR, and so I enrolled in a course.

Nina: and loved it, absolutely loved it, and was just really thriving and I found that I just had a really natural knack for it, to the point where people who I was on the course with were like, how are you getting all of this stuff? And I was like, we’re doing the same course, like, I’m just following what they’re saying, but I don’t think it was until then I actually realised, oh no, like, the ability to like, Formulate a pitch, enjoy writing, have a rhythm.

Nina: The routine I was talking about is actually a skill. So that’s kind of, what got me down the PR path.

Caitlin: Wow. What a, shout out to Michelle. How lovely that you had, Michelle to be able to, tell you, like, give you a bit of a pep talk, but cause sometimes that can be. A bit of a difficult thing as a friend. Like you want to console them and be like, Oh, don’t get better. But sometimes you just need to be a bit like, Hey.

Nina: exactly. Enough now, enough of this.

Caitlin: it makes sense though, that you would be attracted to speech, like speech therapy, right? Because it is all about using your voice on a very practical, like physical level. And so that kind of, that interest has always been there. So I find that so interesting.

Nina: And I think it’s only looking back, that I kind of connect those dots and see that, oh yeah, like helping people use their voice is, is just a very big theme of my life, like in whatever capacity. So yeah.

Caitlin: Oh, I, I love that because, That’s the thing, with children and not being able to, or even speech language therapy is like, the people can’t talk at all, right? We find it really difficult to actually talk, but then maybe they can. It’s a different thing to even know what to say and all of that.

Caitlin: And I’m sure children would have maybe even a bit of anxieties or fears about not being able to talk. But then when they do talk, it’s probably, I could imagine there’d be

Nina: And when you think about not even just like the sort of motor, you know, stuff to do with it, but even like, the other diagnoses, the social stuff, you know, whether it’s autism, ADHD, you know, all of that sort of stuff, like, that also comes into the point of exactly what you said, is what I’m going to say the right thing, you know, am I going to offend people?

Nina: Am I reading the room right? So yeah, it’s like, it’s just this huge umbrella, basically.

Caitlin: Yeah. It’s so, Oh, so big. For sure. Even it just, when you were talking, it reminded about Yeah. Using a voice and things like that. It reminds me of a post that you did a little while ago, on Instagram about women and using a voice and taking up space and, and tell me a little bit about that, because that seemed to be like quite a eye-opening moment for you.

Nina: absolutely. Do you know, yeah, I think when I go back to childhood is when I really think that I started to notice it. So again, Nigerian background, very traditional, sort of male, female roles, also a very Christian household, which that, in itself, can be very traditional as well and so I feel like for a lot of the women that I observed growing up that was a like a double edged sword So you I saw a lot of women who were very strong independent vivacious and then they would kind of go into these marriages and you’d see them kind of shrink, not be able to use their voices as much because of what tradition dictated, you know, kind of afraid to chase their dreams because again, what will people say?

Nina: And am I going to be like a quote unquote bad woman? So I think from very young, I kind of noticed that dynamic. And then as I got older, especially when I was about to graduate, it was very much, okay, yeah, I’ve now finished your course, where’s your husband? And I was like, I’m, I’m not sure that I am ready to go down that route, let alone if I want to.

Caitlin: Want to, yeah.

Nina: You know, faith has always been very important to me, and so what I found a lot that I was being beaten over the head with was, you know, the Bible, all of those sort of like dynamics and it’s not good that man shall be alone, da da da. So I remember getting tired of that and just very much being like, okay, I’m going to have a look to see actually what this book says.

Nina: First of all, you know, in relation to that, but also if that is the case, like I, as a woman, am very outspoken. I’m not afraid to use my voice, etc, etc. So where do I come into this? And that’s what actually ended up turning into my blog And then transitioning into PR, I realized that that same issue is actually what I see with women a lot still.

Nina: Whether it’s that they have the same kind of background as me or even from other societies, I think we all, basically are socialized to shrink and are socialized not to use our voices. I’ve noticed it doesn’t matter what background my clients are from, like

Caitlin: Yeah.

Nina: that thing is there. And so actually a lot of the times, apart from actually learning the system, skill of PR itself.

Nina: There is definitely not, even from personal experience myself, there’s a lot of actual mental unlearning and unpicking of what you’ve been taught being a woman means that also has to go along with it as well.

Caitlin: Absolutely. It’s such a complex topic and particularly with family and culture and all of that and what you’ve been brought up with and that just makes it so much more complicated. at the time growing up, it must have been really difficult to be able to hold all of that inside of you and maybe not be able to express that.

Caitlin: But now that you, at you’re like doing PR and you’re helping people and you like Understand completely what they’re going through and so you can relate on like a whole nother level and help people. It’s almost like a, yeah, like mini therapy or something you must do

Nina: Absolutely. Yeah, I do. I think there is actually like maybe a sense of like, they talk a lot, a lot, don’t they, about the wounded healer, isn’t it? And actually a lot of the time, yeah, you know, the things that you kind of suffered through or, the things that you observed and you wished That maybe you could have helped people with, you know, back in the day is what you actually end up then, kind of trying to, to do in, in future.

Nina: So I’m possibly, you know, a bit of that. Cause I noticed that even when I do my own PR, those are the topics I like to talk about, those mindset things and those cultural things are just holding that mirror up because a lot of the times what I’ve noticed is, people feel it, but they don’t have the words for it. so sometimes just knowing that you’re not alone, is healing in itself, you know?

Caitlin: is. It is so, so much. So that’s what I think a lot of even yet therapy is, is that it’s helping people put words to an experience rather than it just being like, this makes me feel uncomfortable. I’m having this weird, like, feeling in my body. It’s like actually being able to process it through words, which is so, so healing.

Caitlin: Absolutely. And tell me more about, your Work and how that, because I do understand public relations in terms of like pitching ideas and articles and things like that. But I feel like it’s this big, big beast, like this big industry. I guess I don’t know the whole, like the magnitude of it.

Caitlin: So it’s probably a big question to answer in like a short amount of time, but tell me a little bit about like how you explain public relations to

Nina: Yeah, no, absolutely. So like the dictionary definition of PR, public relations itself, is literally just the act of building goodwill with the public or, your target audience or whoever it is that you’re actually trying to appeal to. So in a way, PR actually is not just, like podcasts or magazines or blogs.

Nina: It can also be what you do on social media or speaking on stages, you know. Any act of building, goodwill with, like, your stakeholders would be classed as PR. But, what I help people with, particularly, is, the, the podcast side of things, the article side of things, et cetera, et cetera.

Nina: Because I do find in, in this day and age, most people, even if they’re not using it for business, they’re familiar with social media. We’ve all, you know, we’ve all kind of used the email or, you know, that sort of thing. But there, I, there still seems to be this kind of, mystification, mysticness, surrounding, PR and exactly how to do it.

Nina: I think that a lot of it comes. Because when we think of PR, we think about famous people, like really high people within certain industries. And then, we relate it to ourselves. We think, well, I’m not like those people. it feels like this far out of reach thing.

Nina: Yeah,

Caitlin: so true because that’s exactly what, when I think of PR I do, I think of yeah, like celebrities, I think of politicians, I think of all of that, that they need to have this image of themselves. And I wonder if that also maybe contributes to some people’s, well, particularly maybe small business owners doubt or self confidence.

Caitlin: Like who am I to be, doing this or putting myself out there. And that’s something that I’m like literally in the middle of struggling with at the moment. I, every time I do a podcast or something like this, I had this before I hit record or before I come on, I’m like, what am I even doing? why, why me?

Caitlin: Yeah. And it’s a little bit to do with what we were talking about before about like taking space and using your voice and I’m, It’s so out of character for me to be doing a podcast, like the opposite thing. I think you’d ask my friends and family, A podcast to be way down on the list of things to do, but I think there’s always been something there potentially that I have wanted to use my voice in a certain way, but maybe hadn’t felt comfortable until I’ve been in business.

Nina: So I guess it makes sense that it’s flared up a bit. my, self doubt,absolutely. And it’s so interesting as well, like, you know, just even talking about this before, before we started, Last year, I was reading a book that’s called The Mountain Is You. And I think that is literally, first of all, it’s a really, really great book. You might want to throw it ever so often because it really does kind of hold a mirror up to you, but it’s a good one.

Nina: Ha ha ha! But, I find, like, that whole thing, you know, the mountain is you, like, with PR, like I said, there, there is like with most things, a process, like the same way you can learn to ride a bike or learn to drive, et cetera, et cetera. You know, there, there is a way to do PR in a way, that you can learn.

Nina: And that actually is in quotation marks, easy. I think, as I said, it is the mindset stuff that tends to get in people’s way a lot, but that feeling of, am I worthy? Am I enough? Especially the high you get with, with PR, the more you put yourself out there and the bigger the platforms, it never really goes away.

Nina: And so I think that’s why it’s so important to have a strong why. attached to, putting yourself out there, like when you’re faced with that, why me, why am I doing this again, you can harken back to that, that whole thing of, well, actually, like, I, like, I’m able to say, yes, I, want to help women amplify their messages, but actually, When I really peel it back, it goes back to my desire to help women to use their voices.

Nina: And I think it’s really important that we really get in tune to really what that root cause is, what’s really driving us to want to, get ourselves out there, you know? Yeah.

Caitlin: firstly about the, that it never really goes away and it’s always, you know, it’s going to be there but then also the getting back to your why, but I love what you said, which I totally agree with is it needs to be deep and like needs to, it’s not, it can’t just be like a, superficial things.

Caitlin: I think a lot of the time I’ve never read Simon Sinek’s book or anything like that, but I’ve heard it talked about a lot in the entrepreneurial space. But sometimes when people talk about it, it’s superficial, but I feel like it needs to be bigger than you kind of thing.

Nina: Absolutely. I think about when I was younger, my dad took me to, to the gp. I must have been about five or whatever. I had a cold and my mom was working so she couldn’t take me. So he takes me down and, it was, the appointment was supposed to be for me ’cause I had the sniffles and the GP was like, okay, Mr.

Nina: Dafe, we haven’t seen you for a while. Let’s just do a checkup for you. So they do his checkup and it turned out his blood pressure was through the roof. And the doctor was like, honestly, if I’m surprised you’re actually still up and, like this is, this is really, really bad. And my dad at the time was a heavy smoker.

Nina: He’d been smoking since he was a teenager. And. Literally, it was when the doctor warned him, first of all, how high his blood pressure was and that if he didn’t stop, he could die, that he was like, okay, no more cigarettes and he hasn’t touched them again since, you know, and literally, it has to be like that.

Nina: There’s, is it Eric Thomas? You know, he had this, motivational speech years and years ago, like when you want it as bad, as you want to breathe, then it becomes easier, because I think sometimes, especially with social media and, the size society that we live in with, influences and da da da, you know, it can, it can, we can think of PR as being, Just this vanity metric and just this thing of, Oh, look at me, look at me.

Nina: But actually, if you’re not that sort of person, if that, and if that’s not what drives you, then it definitely has to be deeper than that. So like with my clients, one of the things that I do is, go through the five whys technique and it’s just literally, you know, okay, I want to have PR and you ask yourself why five times until you get to the real answer.

Nina: of like what is driving you and I found that to be really really effective.

Caitlin: That’s so, so helpful, Nina. Thank you. That, it makes me, I was like, when you’re talking, I was actually feeling a bit teary because that’s, I think that’s what it is. I equate not necessarily podcasting, but a certain amount of PR and like attention and putting yourself out there as like a vanity thing.

Caitlin: And you know, something that’s very self indulgent, like who are you to be doing that? But if it’s tied to a bigger thing, like a bigger mission or a bigger wire or a bigger, yeah. Like what you said about if it’s as. If you need it, you want it as much as like you need to breathe. I think that’s fantastic.

Caitlin: And I want to, research more about that, Eric Thomas, but yeah, I like that a lot and that resonates a lot. With me because it’s, yeah, every time I do one of these podcasts episodes, I’m like, yes, this is so good. I get so enlightened, like in so energized and so yeah, motivated. And it’s,

Nina: I love that. That’s awesome. So it shows you this is exactly what you’re supposed to be doing, you know?

Caitlin: But I love that technique that you said about the five whys. I think that, yeah, that’s such a useful, useful thing for listeners to take away from our convo. jumping around a little bit,

Nina: No problem.

Caitlin: me a little bit about like creativity and creating and maybe how that’s benefited your wellbeing as a business owner.

Caitlin: Oh,

Nina: love that question. Creativity and creating how that’s benefited my wellbeing. Wow. . I can talk about the fact that I, for a long time was on the opposite, on, on end of that. in a sense of so I recently discovered that one of the things that I suffer from is productivity anxiety So I am one of those people who finds it very hard not to do anything And i’m also one of those people who when i’m doing things for fun, for example Can feel bad about not working and I think For me, for a long time, writing and, speaking, like, the fact that Michelle was able to say to me you have a gift of communication, you should be writing more, is because obviously I was writing even before I started my blog and before I started doing PR, it was always my therapy, it was always how I, kind of processed my thoughts and my emotions, but I think that when that kind of became tied to my work, it first of all kind of lost A bit of the, the fun, to it and also when I wasn’t doing it, I started to beat myself up and think, Oh God, you know, cause again, routine, having systems in place, et cetera, et cetera.

Nina: So I think the last few years, probably since COVID cause again, during COVID was when we all just kind of had to sit down and do nothing. And whereas most people were enjoying it, I found that I was kind of getting the jitters. I didn’t handle it very well. And that’s when I realized. Oh, productivity anxiety.

Nina: Okay. So for me, I think it’s actually had to be this thing of learning that when you take time out for yourself to do things that you enjoy, first of all, it does promote your well being. It does make you happier. It does reduce stress. But the other thing about me is I am also someone who tends to draw inspiration from everyday life.

Nina: So I can watch a movie and I’ll be like, Oh, that’s a really great lesson. Or that would make a good article or a conversation like this. I’ll be like, Ah, I should write about that. And so just even realizing, That it’s not just about, sometimes, you know, like you said, your well being and stuff like that, but just that rest, just allowing yourself to have that breathing space and not think actually sharpens you and, and makes you better.

Nina: And for me, that was really counterintuitive for very, very long time. But now, like, literally every Sunday, like, my friends, my family know, unless it’s important, I’m not coming out of the house, don’t call me, I’m not likely to pick up, you know, I’m sleeping in, if I want to go somewhere, it’s because I want to, otherwise, so, now it’s even just a thing of, it’s, it’s just a part of me, and even my morning routine and, and stuff like that as well, like reading, and look, Like, I realise I like slow starts to the day rather than just hitting the ground running.

Nina: So, yeah, I think just also realising what, what you need, in terms of what feeds you. during those moments of rest and creativity is also really important as well.

Caitlin: Yeah. Oh, that’s so, I’m so happy you said that because that’s something that I’m missing piece, which I didn’t know about it. I’ll have a lot of patients that are like that, but I never really, it’s, you know, Thought about it in the context of like business and all of that, about how, I’ve got to be productive.

Caitlin: I’ve got to like, do all this stuff and having a bit of a difficulty, maybe, not on one thing, but being able to, rest and stop and yeah, take inspiration from places. I think that’s such a interesting point, but then also. I can see how you would be so, like, how you would have been so amazing in that, in that course you were doing, because you would have just been naturally doing that, using all the inspiration from around the place, because that’s a skill, it’s an ingrained skill, it’s something you can’t, you can learn it and teach it, but I think some people are just natural at doing that, being able to do that.

Caitlin: A very wise, maybe, I think, so what a gift you have,

Nina: Thank you.

Caitlin: it’s lovely, but I also like the idea of having a day where you’re just like, no, this is my time, don’t, don’t bug me,

Nina: Yeah, literally. Yeah. And again, people being people, you know, they’ll test those boundaries, it’s again, like the mountain is you, right? Like, sometimes we can be afraid of offending people, whatever the case may be. And again, it’s unlearning those things of, hey, to, you have to do what’s, what’s right.

Nina: What’s best for, for you? and a lot of us, especially if we are small business owners, you know, we are our brands, we are actually the engine that pushes our business and, so if we, if we don’t look after ourselves, there are greater things actually that are tied to, you know, if we collapse, everything else does too, so, yeah.

Caitlin: so it’s so true, just on that fundamental, level as well. Well, we need to look after ourselves, but also a little bit of what you were talking in there about maybe like authenticity or being true to yourself or standing up for yourself. I like that. So tell me a little bit more about that and how you find authenticity benefiting your work or how you use it in your work.

Nina: Oh, I love that. Do you know, yeah, I feel like, especially in this day and age, number one, like, people, audiences, crave authenticity,

Nina: they don’t just want the same old, same old. And I know like a lot of people kind of get, you know, afraid because it’s like, oh, you know, my, the thing I want to go to is, is oversaturated or so many other people are doing this.

Nina: But what really needs to be understood is the thing that’s going to set you apart is you. As cliche as it sounds, as Dr. Seuss as it sounds, like you are the you iest you that you can be, you know, like honestly, like As there are so many other people, women out there who, who do PR, but they might not have my values, they might not, have the same identifiers that the people who are drawn to me are going, are going to identify with.

Nina: And so for me, you know, especially in PR, it’s, in a lot of ways, actually, been, an exercise in embracing and accepting my quirks and also the different ways in which I think. So going back to when I was, doing my blog and I was talking about the women of the Bible and stuff like that, I used to almost do it in almost like a devotion type of style.

Nina: I kept it very focused on the women. And so I wouldn’t. always insert my thoughts and feelings because again, talking about, feminism and female empowerment in that space was, was, it still is, to be honest, seemed very much as, as taboo. And, what happened was the, the, so the first, article that I had that went viral was about the five common misconceptions about feminism within the church.

Nina: And I ended up writing that out of anger and frustration, because I had seen an article that in, in quite, you know, in all honesty pissed me off. And so I was, near that Kermit meme where he’s just typing the, yeah, that, that was me. And I sent it to I think it was Relevant Magazine, which goes out across, it’s global, international, and at the time I had just started PR.

Nina: So I think I sent it in, in my rage, fully not expecting that they would pick it up, but they did. And I got this influx of subscribers and what’s really funny when people always laugh when I tell them this but my first reaction was actually to to dive into bed and hide under my duvet because I felt uncovered.

Nina: I was like, oh no, I actually shared my real thoughts, yeah, my real thoughts, my real feelings and it’s going viral, oh my god. But that really taught me, because I then got emails from a lot of women being like, you have put into words what I have been trying to express for ages. I’ve been feeling this, but never really knew what that was.

Nina: And I think that was a real teaching moment of As much as you might feel that what you’re saying is taboo, or weird, or quirky, or whatever your hang up is around maybe a particular message that you don’t want to share, that particular side of you that you don’t want to share, that’s going to be the thing That actually draws people because they’re going to be like, Oh my gosh, you do me as well, you know, and that’s how you grow your community.

Nina: And so I think that even goes back to what I was saying earlier about the fact that, yeah, when I do my own PR, I tend to, those tend to be my types of articles, like the things that I That call out society and, and the things that kind of put into words, maybe some of the niggles that women might be feeling, but not be, may not have been able to express.

Nina: And it’s really funny, like doing that not only has sort of grown my community, but that article that went viral, that’s what’s actually built my, my team. So out of that, there was a lady from South Africa. who reached out to me. She wanted mentoring at the time. she is now my graphic designer. And she was the one who’s introduced me to my video editor and so many other things.

Nina: So, it’s not even just, you know, sometimes we think about PR in terms of, Oh, well, it will Give us leads and all of that but PR but gets other PR like I think we started talking because you found me through through Brenner right

Caitlin: Yes, exactly. Yes. That’s so true.

Nina: friends, you can grow your business you can get team like it that authenticity it’s it’s almost like When, you know, if we think about that, when we start school, for example, you know, you stand in the playground and, you know, you end up being friends when you watch kids, they end up, becoming friends because it’s like, Oh, another kid goes, Oh, can I play?

Nina: Because they like what they’re doing. That’s what PR does. It just amplifies whatever game you’re playing. And all the other people come around and they’re like, Oh, I want

Caitlin: that analogy. Oh, but how incredible, because I, another thing that I love is like anger and talking about anger and normal, but shining a light on how, incredible that can be the turn, you know, like, like anger or rage or angst and then fueling that into something that’s so productive and creative and,

Nina: and

Caitlin: be a scary thing.

Nina: but it’s also, so if you think about, there used to be when I, I dunno whether you guys had it too, but Honda, back in the day, they had this advert and, the song. For the commercial like when can hate be good? Can hate be great? Can a hate be something you don’t hate?

Nina: And it was basically like, hate something, hate something, hate something, create something, make something better.

Caitlin: Oh, wow.

Nina: forgot that song. And when you look at like, back in history, like, Martin Luther King, who we celebrate now. Okay, we think about him as this peace loving guy. But he hated racism, you know, mother Teresa, we think about her as this really generous, loving person, but she hated poverty and what it was, do you know what I mean?

Nina: So hate in the right way, it’s just like passion in reverse, but you can, make it into something really, really great, you know,

Caitlin: you can. Yeah, I, well, how important about that? Because when it’s directed in a way that’s positive, but I think sometimes people are afraid of their own aggression and their own, anger. And it’s like a really scary thing. if it’s put towards, things that you’re passionate about, or, you know, Yeah, things that are important to you or I just love that I just have this image of you.

Caitlin: Yeah. being so infuriated and just like an article.

Nina: I did not expect it. It was more of a catharsis for me. And it was like, oh, it’s been spread far and wide. Oh, no, no.

Caitlin: But it sounds like it was a bit of I don’t know. This might sound a bit woo woo, but a bit of like a collective unconscious thing. so many women have probably been feeling this and it just so happened to come to you. You had the, the words and the means and all of that.

Caitlin: The, to be able to put it out into the world.

Nina: Yeah, I totally agree with that. Yeah.

Caitlin: Yeah, I like that a lot.it’s very exciting. maybe circling back a little bit to, when you’re working as a health professional, did you. Work as a health professional while you’re doing your PR.

Nina: Yeah, especially when I first started. And even now because I went to consultant level as a speech therapist. And so even now there might be like a few cases. You know, that I might pick up and yeah, you

Caitlin: Oh, cool.

Nina: it’s still like a skill that I hone and because it was actually, something I that I enjoy doing and really, really love, I think that’s the thing as well.

Nina: I think sometimes, there is this mindset of, we have to quit, and leave, you know, whatever we, we studied behind in order to go all in, in our businesses. And for some people that is true, but also we live in a world luckily now that we don’t have to choose if we really don’t want to, you know?

Nina: So, yeah. Yeah, yeah,

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s the whole thing with me and like my podcast. And it’s not just me. It’s like, there’s so many other people out there that are, feel the same way is that as health professionals, yeah, we can do all this stuff. it’s not as if we have to do just be, in our little like health professional box and yeah, be a speech language therapist and that’s it.

Caitlin: And we can’t like, go outside and do other things. It’s so important for us that, and it seems like it’s been important for you as well to keep. That, but you’ve had an other PR and being able to do that work has allowed you to keep maybe the speech language work because for some reason, just doing the speech language therapy work wasn’t working for you, but then having both it’s been able to.

Caitlin: Yeah,

Nina: But I think it goes back to even your earlier question about creativity. I think if I was, if I was to go back to like that Nina in 2014, who was crying in the classroom. That’s really what was kind of at the core of it was this. This in and of itself was not fulfilling, you know, there was, there was another part of me that needed to actually be served as well.

Nina: and I think that that is, that’s really what is, what’s great, isn’t it? Like, as you come to these points of kind of self discovery, you can add, whether it’s more strings to your bow or replace as you see fit, you know, like we can evolve.

Caitlin: absolutely that self discovery and yeah, you’re a queen of metaphor as well, which I love, love, love, love. That’s, yeah, that’s, oh, but it is, it’s about like how can we enrich and add more colors to our, to our life and have it, this beautiful world. This just reminded me of another interview that I did with, someone else who’s a psychologist, but now they’re, in floral design and they’re a florist.

Caitlin: And they just said now that they’ve got the two, they didn’t realize how amazing like their inner world or their world could be. It’s just opened up all these doors, like a big mansion. And now they live in rather than maybe before they’ll live in you. Metaphorically in a, two bedroom house or something like that.

Caitlin: But now that they’re doing this other creative work, it’s opened up so much for them and enriched their world in a different way, which I thought was a really cool thing to think of. And I think that’s similar to what you’re saying.

Nina: absolutely. Yeah, I love that. Wow. Florist.

Caitlin: Yeah. It’s different.

Nina: I think that’s what’s so cool, especially about like this podcast, like I’m really looking forward to hearing, the kind of, you know, What people started as and like what what paths they’ve kind of gone into that I’m sure that’s that must be so interesting to have these conversations all the time

Caitlin: It’s so fascinating. and I think we need to talk about it more. Health professionals need to feel like they can talk about it as well. what has that been like having the two?

Caitlin: Was it a bit of a scary thing, like telling your friends and family, Oh, I’m going to be doing this other, totally other thing. Yeah. Oh yeah. What was that like?

Nina: Yeah, I do think I think in the beginning it was, it was scary because exactly as you said it was totally different, and definitely, like I never saw myself blogging or indeed like you said like having to do like PR or anything like that, but I think like, especially for my close friends and family they saw, They saw the journey and so as, as it did evolve and as it did change for them, it wasn’t such a big shock because they’d kind of followed and watched along.

Nina: But I think probably in the beginning it was very much like, okay, where did, where did this come from? Yeah. Yeah,

Caitlin: It’s a bit, yeah, but that’s, that’s the thing, right? Like once they see how it’s, how you’re loving it and how you’re flourishing and how it’s such an important thing that you’re doing,And it makes it a lot easier, but you’re right. Like at the beginning. And so a lot of people in the community, maybe they have like a secret passion or a secret creative wish to do something, but it’s yeah, that first step and like taking that leap, which I think some people are like, you know, the moment they’re like, Oh, I don’t know if I can do this, if I’m allowed to do this, if like what people think, what they’ll say, cause it’s, it’s totally different.

Nina: Yeah, and even like the, the phrase that comes to me as well as like, show don’t tell, like even within marketing and stuff they talk about with your products and things like that. you should show people, you know, what it does and the effects and the benefits rather than like telling them in terms of all the features and stuff.

Nina: But I think that it can also be like that in terms of life. And, You know, going towards another career or, you know, those sort of things as well. Especially if you’ve got, naysayers, show, don’t tell. keep doing what you’re doing. Get,whatever the success is that you are looking for.

Caitlin: And for a lot of people around you, as they see you flourish, as they see, oh, well, maybe there is something to what she’s been saying all along. Like, that will speak, in and of itself, Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That’s. Excellent, because, it’s such good advice as well,

Nina: Thank you.

Caitlin: like show, don’t tell because that’s a marketing thing. But yeah, your gift of being able to translate things into different, yeah, because you’re so right in terms of that there are going to be potentially, yeah, naysayers, but. keep doing you and showing them, you don’t have to kind of get involved at such good, great advice.

Nina: Absolutely.

Caitlin: Oh, I love, I’ve loved this conversation. You’re so wise and, have so, so many, yeah, excellent things to, to share as well, it makes so much sense that you’re, you’re doing PR like it’s, yeah, I’m so happy for

Nina: I’ve really enjoyed this too.

Caitlin: you did it, yeah, took the, the plunge and, yeah.

Caitlin: It’s very exciting. But is there anything that like, as we’ve been talking, that’s come up for you that you feel like you need to say, or like anything like that, or maybe anything that I haven’t asked you?

Nina: not necessarily that you haven’t asked me, but I do think that what comes up for me is very much what we talked about in the very beginning. I think one of the greatest, misconceptions about PR is that it’s just for an elite, or it’s, just for like special people, celebrities or people who are like, a hundred times ahead than, than I am right now.

Nina: And I think it’s really, really important. I hope the message that people really get from this is as long as you’ve got something to say, You know, as long as there’s an impact that you want to make in the world, as long as there’s value that you can add to other people, then, that is you, you are in quotation marks worthy of PR.

Nina: The other thing that I would say as well, we kind of touched on it earlier about PR maybe being a vanity thing. I like to think about it as a service.number one for, the influencers, the podcast hosts, the editors, whoever those gatekeepers are, a little known secret is that they are actively looking for people to be on their platforms.

Nina: They want to actually fill out, whatever, It is that they do and if they have someone like you who is an expertise and can actually do all of that then you’re actually a godsend to them you’re not a pest you’re not bothering them like so think about it as you’re actually offering a service in the same way that you would to your to your clients or you know your customers or whoever it is that you serve.

Nina: The other last thing that I will leave people with because the other sort of misconception as well as all, you know, I don’t have the skills for PR, whatever the case may be. and my thing is, apart from actually knowing how to put a pitch together, if you are someone who writes a blog. Has a podcast, has clients that you’re actively sort of teaching or coaching or serving, then you’re, you’re already doing PR or being on a podcast or, writing an article for article for a particular platform does is amplify your message.

Nina: It’d be like, giving you a microphone instead of just talking to the people in front of you, now you can talk to a whole crowd, you know, but it’s the same thing that you’ve been doing anyway, so I think those would be the things

Caitlin: I’m like, Oh, thank you for that. But like, yeah, you say it’s just, it’s, you’re already doing it. You’re already doing PR is just, yeah, like you said, like amplifying that. So it’s not necessarily something new, really,

Caitlin: if you look at it that way. And yeah, I second that with, yeah. Needing guests and things like that.

Caitlin: So people reached out to me and was like, I’m a health professional, but I’ve got a creative side business. I’d be like, heck yes, come on, please.

Nina: See, there we go.

Caitlin: So it’s true. It’s true. It’s so true. Oh, I’ve loved, loved our conversation today. I could talk to you for like for hours. I feel like you’ve got so much to share.

Caitlin: but how can listeners get in contact with you? Or like, do you have anything that you’re promoting at the moment or tell me

Nina: Yes, I can, I can send that through to you. I have a quiz, basically, called How PR Ready Are You? because one of the questions I get a lot from people is how, how do I kind of, you know, get ready for PR? How do I know whether I’m ready to put myself out there? So this quiz literally asks you eight questions.

Nina: It’s like two minutes long and it gives you a score, basically. a PR readiness, score. So I can send that through to you andwhoever. if they can.

Caitlin: All right now for one of my favorite parts of the interviews. Which are the rapid fire questions. So Nina. Tell me, what is your favorite film?

Nina: That’s a tough question because I have many favorite movies. It’s kind of like with, with music I’m really, really eclectic so my taste in movies tends to change. But the first movie I ever fell in love with was The Little Mermaid,

Caitlin: Yes. A Disney fan. I sense. Yeah, a little mermaids. A good one for sure. And whose your favorite character.

Nina: And what would my favorite character be?

Nina: I’ve always had a soft spot for villains. I don’t know what that says about me, but I love their kind of kooky characters. so Ursula. But yeah, favorite type of movie, definitely like a Disney, Marvel type of thing.

Caitlin: Yeah. I have a

Nina: villain too

Caitlin: and what about a concert? You’ll never forget.

Nina: Oh, what’s a concert that you’ll never forget? Two come to mind. The first one being Beyonce but this was during her I am Sasha Fierce, era. I went to see at the O2 Arena, in London and she sung Ave Maria, live.

Nina: And the song itself is a really technically difficult song. It’s quite operatic, you know, hymnal. And hearing her sing it flawlessly live, I remember just, you know, the hairs on my arms standing up and everything. It was just really, really, really beautiful.

Nina: The second one for me would be, , Lauryn Hill. It was, I think the 10 year anniversary of her album, The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, which was one of my favourite albums when I was younger. And she came to London to perform. And anyone who is a fan of Lauryn Hill knows that she is notorious for either turning up late or sometimes not turning up.

Nina: So it was a gamble to get the tickets. But luckily she did turn up. And she performed amazingly and yeah, it was just, it was great. I sang at the top of my lungs and it was, yeah, it was a great concert.

Nina:

Caitlin: Oh, Beyonce. What a queen.One day, I would love to see her alive. What’s an absurd thing that you love, or like a quirky fact about you.

Nina: What’s an absurd thing that I love? That’s a really, really great question. Some people would say my love of Disney, is absurd because since I fell in love with The Little Mermaid at five years old, I still love Disney. it’s still one of my favorite, genres and types of movies, to watch.

Nina: So maybe it’s that. I wouldn’t call it absurd, but I, I’ve had a few weird looks when people realize exactly how Disney obsessed I am and how much, of the songs I know and how many words and scripts, so yeah.

Caitlin: Oh, Well, we can be absurd in our. Disney loves together.

Caitlin: Beautiful. Thank you so much, Nina. but yeah, I’ll pop those in the show notes and I’ll probably put, I’ll try and find links as well to those books that you were recommending because yeah, I’m a, I think I’m more of a collector of books than a reader of books, but I still like to, I still like to have them just in case like,

Nina: No, I’ve always been a bookworm.

Caitlin: thank you so much.

Caitlin: This has been an absolute treat. I hope maybe I’ll have to get you on the podcast again. Cause I have, I’m sure like, yeah, this, this episode will, yeah, make me think of so many more questions and I’m sure the audience will have lots of questions too, so thank you so much.

Nina: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been great.

Caitlin: Alright, that’s the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Healers with Hustles. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, will you do me a tiny favour and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform and you’ll be the first to know as soon as a new episode drops.

Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, ta ta for now.