When the old way no longer works: On doing business differently with OT Leesa Tuffnell

Leesa: once you know your why, the when, where, where, you know when, where, what, how it all falls into place.

Leesa: Your why is going to help guide your decisions. Your why is going to be like that little safety net when you are going out and doing things that feel uncomfortable and a bit scary and your why is also gonna get you through the hard days.

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their healthcare hats for nonclinical creative caps. I'm Caitlin, a psychologist, turn copywriter, and this is healers with hustles.

All right. Now my guest today is Lisa Tufnell, who is a business coach and mentor for Sole Trader Occupational Therapist, helping them grow sustainable values led practices through private and group coaching. Her approach blends clinical depth with practical business coaching, drawing from her own mentorship under industry leading OTs, business coaches, neuroscientists, and.

Psychotherapist, Lisa's mys is clear Help OT soul traders build six figure businesses between school wells. Woo-hoo. I'm really looking forward to you hearing our conversation today.

Caitlin: Awesome. well, welcome to the podcast, Lisa. I'm super, super happy that, we're connected and that you agreed to come on.

Caitlin: So thank you for being here.

Leesa: I am really excited to chat because we've got lots of things in common. you know, just in terms of being allied health professionals doing things a bit differently. We both live on the Sunshine Coast dealing with the wet weather. not very sunny, but yeah, I'm just super excited to

Caitlin: Oh, no, definitely. yeah, no, I can't wait to what we, touched on because even just before we hit record, we're already talk getting really, deep into the Yeah. like the different, aspects of doing what we're doing, which is something totally different. but maybe I would love to hear like your story, like how you came to be doing what you're doing and like doing something super, super differently.

Caitlin: Like tell me all about it.

Leesa: Well, I think it, it started a couple of years ago. I was working as, you know, a clinical supervisor. I'm an occupational therapist. I was working as a clinical supervisor, a quality manager, and a clinical efficiencies manager.

Caitlin: Oh, wow.

Leesa: That, it sounds important that title

Caitlin: It does.

Leesa: Eventually Caitlin, all it means is if there was a clinician in the business, 'cause I worked for a national NDIS company, if there was a clinician in the business who was struggling a little bit like with, mainly around KPIs and billables and utilization.

Leesa: So that was struggling with that. Maybe they were working really long hours, they just, working on weekends, starting to burn out, thinking about, you know, changing to a different job, all those sorts of things. So when those things popped up, which happened quite a bit, the team manager would refer that person to me for some coaching sessions.

Leesa: So, I have always been a master of calendars and I've really, because I've been in private practice for more than a decade, I suppose I really knew. The rules, well, when it came to private practice, so I was very good at capturing my clinical time. The hours I spent at work really equated to, you know, my, my KPIs and my utilization.

Leesa: and so I managed all of those things really, really well. So, you know, the bosses are like, oh, well if you can do it well, you can show other people how to do it

Caitlin: people. Yeah.

Leesa: yeah. So that's when I got into the coaching space and I really enjoyed it, you know, 'cause people would come to me and they might really be struggling.

Leesa: Like they're hating work. They're hating their job. they're not feeling like they're doing the right, you know, the right thing by their participants. lots of time spent in the paperwork and in the admin and all those sorts of things, even focused on really quality.

Caitlin: Yeah. Not doing the, actually the what? They signed up for it in the first place.

Leesa: Yeah. So they were starting to feel unfulfilled and burnt out and I would work with them. Yeah.

Caitlin: So fix the, the sys, like the kind of the processes and the systems and things like that so that they'd have more space.

Leesa: Yeah. And what I really noticed in that p particular role was you can fix calendars and systems and, methods of working and workflow and all those sorts of things and people will get results. So people moved up from, you know, 16% utilization to way over 75%. And I even remember one OT saying to me, oh my God, this feels so easy now Lisa, what do I do now?

Leesa: So then she had the capacity to, go to her team manager to go, you know, I can probably take on some other things that are gonna fill my cup, like mentoring. You grad OTs, like, how wonderful was that? So, you know, it, it was a, a wonderful role to work in, but what I did notice is underneath the calendars, the systems and things like that.

Leesa: The other bit that we were also working on were people's ability to regulate, their mindset. Because oftentimes you can have a perfect calendar, but if you are frequently dysregulated, you're really struggling. You know, with being in that sympathetic dominant state from a nervous system point of view, you've got a hand break on yourself.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah.

Leesa: in my coaching sessions, I was able to do a little bit of that whilst also working on the calendars and the systems. but obviously I didn't have huge, free capacity to do that. You had so many sessions to get somebody's utilization up. and then we kind of moved on to the next person. So at one point I decided, you know what, I could, I get pretty good at this.

Leesa: I could probably go out and maybe do it in my own way so I can work on the mindset, I can work on the regulation, I can work on, you know, using my OUT skills from a cognitive and neuro, perspective to help people. and that's when I decided to yep, just jump ship and, and go and work for myself.

Leesa: I had also

Caitlin: Oh,

Leesa: burnout, whilst I was working in

Caitlin: so you, yeah. Also had the experience of what that was like and Mm,

Leesa: leader and, I was very much all about, you know, excelling. that's where I got my sense of self-worth. And then eventually my, my body just kind of gave up on me and I spent, nearly three weeks in the Sunshine Coast Uni Hospital.

Caitlin: Oh my gosh.

Leesa: Yeah. Like I had really, I was, yeah, I was really kind of struggling. And then after that is when I was like, there needs to be a better way for myself. And that's, I really, you know, leaned into, regulation. I got somatic coaching. It completely changed everything for me, and that's what I started to bring into my at work.

Leesa: Yeah.

Caitlin: yeah. Wow. I'm just thinking 'cause you, what you bring is like, there's so many different aspects. It's not just like the business, like the systems and all of that. It's also like the mindset. But then also, yeah, like you said, like the somatic stuff. It's really quite holistic what you do.

Leesa: I

Caitlin: Which is what like an OT is like amazing. Like, you know, that's what OTs are. They know so

Leesa: I always, say that I like to, you know, teach OTs how to OT themselves. 'cause we have got so many frameworks and resources and things like that, but we just get to have a different set of skills. So we can use those things to our own advantage. We can use them for ourselves.

Leesa: and that, that's definitely been, been the case for me. And that's what I suppose makes my coaching different to other coaching programs I either know of or I have been in, involved in. Personally, I will always be the coach that gets coached herself, so I see lots of different types of, programs and approaches.

Leesa: but mine is very unique to me. It is really all, all about using OT frameworks and, and my unique spin on the frameworks as,

Caitlin: that's, and so like what you're saying, coming back to like talking about like doing things differently, like you really are doing things differently. Tell me about your experience with that. Like, was that a natural thing for you to do, or was it really uncomfy at the start, or like, what did

Leesa: took a little, it was, it was a really long lead in, I'm gonna say. So when I was working as, the, manager and and leader and things like that, I had also started a private Facebook group called The Mindful ot. And it was really all about, I suppose me sharing my learnings about going through that, that burnout.

Leesa: And I started that. Oh, a few years ago now, I actually have to check and see when our birthday is, but it was a couple of years ago. So I just would put content in there very much about, yeah, really focused on regulation and burnout and self-care for OTs. we've got thousands of OTs in that group now from all across the world.

Leesa: So I, I started doing that and then I created a course, an online self-paced course for OTs who were experiencing burnout, just using the frameworks and, the learnings that had really benefited me. So I popped that in the course, and that was probably my first step into actually moving away from employment and moving into self-employment.

Leesa: So there was that course. And then over the last probably, you know, 12 months, I've really kind of niched down on my zone of genius, which is. Helping OT sole traders because obviously I've got a background in quality assurance. I've got a background in systems, I've got a background in clinical efficiency.

Leesa: and when you increase somebody's efficiency or their utilization, you're obviously also increasing their revenue and their invoicing because I want OT sole traders who are craving flexibility to have that, but also to have profitability, to have systems Yeah. To support them for, for that flexibility.

Leesa: So yeah, big bit of a mismatch of things I think

Caitlin: It's cool

Leesa: in a journey. Been a

Caitlin: yeah. Yeah. I've been a journey for sure. Like what has, the experience been like? Like when you talk to people about what you do, like how does,

Leesa: Well,

Caitlin: what does that look like?

Leesa: We were talking a little bit about that. I had two episode, there's sort of two schools of thought on it, I think. when it comes to occupational therapy, OTs are super familiar with being supervised. They're really familiar with being mentored. They're not so familiar with being coached, so it's a bit of a newish space.

Leesa: I do know of some OT coaches, but, yeah, it, it's still an emerging, you know, area I suppose.

Caitlin: Yes.

Leesa: for me, because I have been getting business and somatic, personal professional development and coaching for years, it doesn't feel unusual

Caitlin: It doesn't, no. Yeah,

Leesa: part of the, part of the, the piece. and I've absolutely loved the benefit of it, which is why I now do it myself.

Leesa: but yeah, it, it's definitely interesting because. There's, as I said, two schools. So one school's like, yeah, Lisa, that's amazing. That's so cool what you do. Da da. And then there's the other school, which is like, well that's a bit different. Like, how's that little, how's that little side hustle of yours going, Lisa, how's that little biz going?

Leesa: And I'm like, well, it's a little biz. It is, it is my work.

Caitlin: It should work. Yes.

Leesa: I do two days a week, clinical practice, and then the other three days is coaching. And I only work between school bells. So I'm, I'm, you know, that, that's how I have structured my practice, both in terms of clinical and coaching. and because I only do like two little days of clinical, people are like, oh, it's not real ot.

Caitlin: it is not real. I get that too. People like, oh, about like your psychology and like, how many days are you doing? I'm like, oh. You know, maybe, yeah, two days probably. Like, and they kind of look at me as if, like,

Leesa: Gosh. Yeah. Wow. Look at you like that's not real therapy.

Caitlin: Yeah. Rather than going, like, how cool is that, that you've got like the space to be able to really like, think deeply about these people and like be really, immersed in what's going on for them rather than like trying to keep tabs on a hundred patients.

Leesa: Like I just, I just love it. So it's really interesting. Yeah. When you know, and this can even be my husband and my kids are like my biggest cheer squad. They are so supportive. But I have other members of my family who are like, I. Oh, that social media thing, like, I don't know why you bother. Like, it's just literally, they, they are some of the words and,

Caitlin: Yes.

Leesa: I hear and I'm like, oh, okay.

Leesa: I could be bothered doing that. And I'm like, okay. But it's, you know, I'm, at the end of the day, I'm doing work that absolutely lights me up that is aligned with my values. That absolutely feeds into my vision, you know, for my life. So it doesn't like screw what everybody else thinks, I think. But yeah. Yeah.

Leesa: I, I've even been like with, you know, different people out to dinner and I don't get included in some of the conversation because, you know, I'm not doing that purely clinical work. And, yeah, like we were saying on the Simpson. You know the crazy cat lady?

Caitlin: Mm. Yeah.

Leesa: That's me. I'm down the end. The crazy cat lady.

Leesa: so that could, that has been a really interesting, sort of journey for me as well. Kind of really leaning into, well this is what lights me up and caring less about what somebody else might think. because this is amazing work. I work less hours than I used to. I make much more money than I used to.

Leesa: I'm doing things that I am so aligned with doing. I love celebrating my soul traders. I get to work with incredible therapists and I'm doing something that's just bigger than myself. 'cause I always feel like if I can help one sole trader, I'm not just helping them. I'm helping their entire case book because they did not have a sustainable business if they did burn out.

Leesa: Many of them are like, well, I'm just gonna close up shop and just go get a real job, or, you know, do something completely different. which is fine, but I, I get to help other people direct indirectly through my coach. Love

Caitlin: Maybe we should talk a little bit about that because that's actually like, it's just something that when you talk about the closing up and going and getting like quote unquote proper job, like I've been seeing that they come in marketing groups like that. Not necessarily for healthcare providers or allied health professionals, but just people in generally in business.

Caitlin: And it seems to be a bit of a trend of people going back and being an employee. Like, have you seen that or like, what's the kind of conversations around that because it seems like you are the perfect antidote to that, like what you offer.

Leesa: is, this is what I do, Caitlyn. So yeah, pretty much like when people jump on a, a call, those initial calls with me, that's the thing. Like if you, if you can't fix this issue for yourself, where will you end up? And, and the thing is like, I would have to go back and get a job because they've still got, you know, bills to pay and I've got a mortgage and, you know, all those things.

Leesa: and I'm like, well, how would that make you feel? And every single person has said to me, it would feel like they were a failure. It would feel like going back to work for somebody else would be a bit soul sucking. so yeah, we, we really work to turn all of that around.

Caitlin: Wow. It must be such like, yeah, such exactly like big shifts there,

Leesa: It is, it's incredible. And you're like,

Caitlin: That's

Leesa: like, it's just amazing to see somebody sort of come to me, be super stressed, like literally so worried about their cash flow. investing in coaching feels like an absolute stretch. And then they go through and within three months they have turned it all around for themselves.

Leesa: They've got really solid businesses, they've got good incomes. They're just working the hours that they wanted to work. Like it's really, it's really beautiful to see.

Caitlin: What are like the biggest things like the, that you see that help with that shift?

Leesa: I think it's, there's a couple of things. Like, as I said, it's the mindset piece.OTs often, you know, sole traders just think of themselves as like, you know, that whole, oh, I'm, I'm an OT and I've just got like this little thing. I just work for myself a couple of hours a week. And like really just thinking, like, kind of stuck in that total, just purely clinical, mindset.

Leesa: Whereas what I get my, clients to do is really to think about being a CEO of their own business. Having that CEO mindset, because when we are working for ourselves, we are not just clinicians, we also get to be business. people. We also get to, be our own private practice managers. So the clinicians I work with are really great, you know, confident, uh, most of the time clinically.

Leesa: so I don't, I don't do any clinical supervision anymore. I've got wonderful networks I can refer people to, but I'm just all about, okay, well let's, let's focus on, on the mindset. Let's then focus on their ability to regulate. That really helps. And the next thing we look at is that other layer. It's about, well, let's, what's a CEO do?

Leesa: Well, they've probably got a business plan. They've got a business strategy, they've got some systems, they've got some structure, they've got forecasts. They, they have given themselves, some parameters to work within, so they know what they're trying to achieve. They know what their days look like, rather than just feeling really reactive about things.

Leesa: So obviously having that quality assurance background, I'm all into, you know, processes and systems. and I have lots of OTs come to me go, but I'm just, I'm just, this little thing, like big businesses, they have quality assurance systems and I'm, it's kind of like running, like you can run barefoot, but it bloody helps have a pair of shoes, you know?

Leesa: and

Caitlin: You can do it. Show of it.

Leesa: Yeah, so let's just make it a little bit easier for ourselves. So basically in coaching, as I said, we look at three different things. Basically the mindset and the regulation. We also look at business skills and business strategy specifically for ot, sole traders and their businesses. And then the other thing that we, we look at as having private practice skills. So that's different. Again. So those three elements delivered in that holistic, package is really what gets people the results.

Caitlin: Beautiful. Yeah, and I can see how the mindset thing particularly, well, I wonder like for OTs, because I was thinking about the OTs that I know, like who I've worked with professionally, but all who I also know personally, and they're people who are very like perfectionistic, very conscientious, and so I should imagine that they'd be very prone to burnout because of that.

Leesa: Yeah. And that's what pops up all the time is people are like, I'm really struggling 'cause I'm a perfectionist. I procrastinate, I avoid, I avoid doing some things, you know? So to me they're all functional expressions of dysregulation.

Caitlin: Hmm.

Leesa: So if we can, you know, get regulated and I use somatic techniques, a lot of bottom up, top down sort of strategies that has worked so well for me, it has been game changing for me.

Leesa: So that's the framework that I sort of, support my OTs with. And then it's kind of like magic. It is literally like that. I've got an OT and she was like, oh, she's got this beautiful calendar. And she's like, but I just, it's not working. I don't do dah, dah, dah.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Leesa: the regulation practice, she does that and then she logs onto her computer and she goes, it's like magic.

Leesa: Then I just do what I have planned. 'cause her calendar was always, and she's like, I just. Can't believe it. And even, you know, just sometimes giving people like a structure, a strategy, a framework, a way of approaching their business. I was literally on a call this morning and my OTs, like after one session, she said, I've tripled my utilization tripled. She said, just, just with having a structure. And I'm like, isn't it amazing? As I said, like, let's get some Nikes on our feet. Let's, you know, set ourselves up for success.

Caitlin: That's awesome.

Leesa: yeah, it makes a bit, and then of course, because I, I go from speaking to OTs who are really stressed, who are like. I don't know how I'm going to keep going.

Leesa: Like I'll just keep going because that's what I'm going to do. And then seeing them a couple of months later and they're like, I don't even know who that person was anymore. Like, I'm profitable. I'm working my hours, I'm living my best OT life. Like my, their clients are great. Getting great outcomes like that is, that is the dream.

Leesa: That's what we are, we are building in coaching

Caitlin: Incredible. That's so cool that you get to do that. But then I'm also just thinking like, wow, it's such a shame that. People have that mindset of, well, it's just like a little business, you know, or something like that, and that you get excluded from the table.

Leesa: and I think it is, it's just because it's a bit, it's a little bit different. It's a bit unique, so people aren't really sure what to do. And especially like older school OTs.

Caitlin: Mm,

Leesa: like, they may not be on social media at all. So it's almost, social media is just like a little bit of a, a frivolous thing.

Leesa: Whereas I use social media as marketing to tell people about what I do and to connect with people,

Caitlin: absolutely. It's incredible for that, but yeah.

Leesa: in itself because Caitlin, I didn't even have my own Facebook account until I was in my thirties. I'm not a person who gets her photo tape, like, you look at my camera roll. It's all just, kids.

Leesa: Say to somebody the other day, if I went missing, like, they're going to be scraping a barrel, getting a photo from, you know. 10 years ago to put on the milk carton. Like I'm just not in the camera roll. and yeah, I only got Facebook when I actually worked, I worked, you know, out Central West Queensland for a while and I was gonna be away.

Leesa: I was working in a mine and I was gonna be away from, you know, friends and family. So I was like, I'll, I'll jump on this Facebook thing and I'll do that. So to go from the person who resisted Facebook until she was in her Yeah. Mid to late thirties to be, oh, I've got a LinkedIn account and I'm on Instagram and I've got a Facebook group, like I've got an email list.

Leesa: Like, who is this person?

Caitlin: unrecognizable. It's amazing. But I relate so hard there because yeah, I've like, I've had the social medias, but I never used them. Like they're just there, I never thought of myself as a social media person. 'cause Yeah. I was just so like almost anti, but then going into business, you,

Leesa: Yeah, yeah, me too. It's kind of just. You, you get to do it. And it's a whole, and social media is just a whole other level of skill, you know, that, that you get to learn and you get to go through that and hopefully, like, absolutely. I'm not an expert. I have not mastered it, have not gone viral. not that that is my aim, but I hope that I just continue to get better with it.

Leesa: Like, I definitely feel I've gotten better than, you know, I, I either in quality, in, regularity, all those things. since I started a few years ago in my little Facebook

Caitlin: You are great. You're a little face.

Leesa: oh, little

Caitlin: No, it's like a massive, that's like so many people, oh, your social media is great. Like I love reading your posts. Like they're quite, they're really like, or I, I don't really like the word authentic because it gets used so much, but they're really raw and like you see you in it, which is really cool.

Caitlin: 'cause a lot of the times social media is very, even business, social media is really polished and like all the, the edges are sanded off and so you get this really neat thing. But I really like your, what you put out there, it feels really real.

Leesa: I'm very happy to hear it because you do, you know, I, all of my content is my story, my

Caitlin: Hmm.

Leesa: and it, that's kind of the, the other tricky bit, isn't it, about social media, is you get to be, vulnerable and share, you know, all of the different little parts that you think could be valuable, to somebody else who might be going through the same thing.

Leesa: but yeah, once again, like when I first started with that sort of stuff, I would just. Create a post and hit publish and then run away, because I'm just like, oh. And then as I said, you kind of come back and you go, okay, well people are supportive. And that, that was some of the feedback that I've always gotten is that yeah, people can see that's, that's me.

Leesa: That's my voice, that's my story. and I think, and I think, you know, literally we've all got a unique point of difference and we are our own point of difference. And if we can put that into, you know, our, our content that's going to lead the right people to me, because I am not the OT for all OTs. Like I, I'm just the OT coach for, for my people.

Leesa: Yeah. I don't have to

Caitlin: it.

Leesa: all people. And I, that's something else I've been able to sort of just. Maybe that belief, just throw that away in the last couple of years as well. Like not trying to be all things to all people, which I think is kind of comes with OT as well. So many of us are generalists. So I think I almost bought that mindset into the coaching space and I had to help everybody.

Leesa: But I, I am, no, I'm not the guru. I'm simply there to support people to be, to step into the CEO role of their own business. Yeah. So that,

Caitlin: hmm. And then embracing that is, it makes social media content really easy, but I can totally see how like bringing, yeah, the OT like mindset to, not mindset, but like the OT way to social media would be tricky, which is also really cool. So you can help other people with that as well.

Leesa: but it's interesting like through like reading your content, like I love your stuff as well, like, you know, they've had some music festival stuff. I love how you weave your lessons into different experiences and it's just. I don't know. They're just nice and easy to read and I relate to them.

Leesa: and yeah, I can see you, Caitlyn, your unique bit through your writing as well.

Caitlin: Mm

Leesa: what connects us. So then we're like, oh, I see this person and I feel like we, we could be friends. And you know, like

Caitlin: Exactly. And then you're like, I wanna,

Leesa: yeah. So that's

Caitlin: And that's the

Leesa: us into each other. Yeah. And, and the best thing about social media has been the people that I've met, I've met amazing OTs and entrepreneurs and, you know, amazing psychologists who host their own podcasts and, like marketing, managers, a whole host of different people, through social media.

Leesa: And that has been incredible.

Caitlin: That's the cool thing about the networking and then connecting, and we were, before we hit, record, we were talking about LinkedIn and how, how gripes with LinkedIn and like that's the thing. If you think about it as a way to connect with other people and network and all of that, it, it makes social media a bit easier.

Leesa: Yeah, actually, really interestingly, I've got, like with different connections I've made on, LinkedIn, his name's Michael Clark and, he is working, he sort of works in NDIS, marketing, you know, worlds and spaces as well. And I was on his podcast recently and he's like, oh, Lisa, you would really like to meet these people.

Leesa: And so he's in there like connecting me with different people and I'm like, oh, Michael, you would really like to have this person, this person, this person on your podcast, because they're, and I'm like, this, this is fantastic. Like, I feel like this is how LinkedIn is meant to be used. Like let's share

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah.

Leesa: together because, like I'm really about building a community.

Leesa: To be able to support OTs to absolutely love their, their careers and their businesses. and as I said, I do one piece, there's lots of pieces to that. So if I've got lots of connections, it means I get to build this community around my ot, sole traders.

Caitlin: absolutely. I.

Leesa: feeling supported.

Caitlin: I, I, I really like that. And that this speaks to the whole, like, collaborating with people rather than thinking of people, like competitors and all of that.

Leesa: Yeah. And that's what we do, isn't it? As allied health professionals, we're usually multidisciplinary. We refer to each other. so I suppose I've bought elements of that into how I run coaching business.

Caitlin: Yeah. That's cool. Well, I love that, that it's cool. I was just reflecting on that. Thank you.I was just realizing like that I haven't really been asked you any of the, like the, some of the questions I was going to. but in terms of social media, maybe we should talk a little bit about that or. What, what do you tell your, clients, like when they talk about like, social media and they're like, oh, I don't know about stepping into social media.

Caitlin: Like, I don't, maybe it's like they're more about like that they don't feel like they should because of they feel like a fraud or something like that. Like how do you address that with your clients?

Leesa: Well, there's so many things isn't there, especially like with OT and you know, under our APR guidelines and things like that, there's certain rules that we need to

Caitlin: Yeah, for sure.

Leesa: so, you know, there's, there's that element about. What can I post? And then there's the, you know, the whole, oh God, then I've gotta put myself out there, and then it actually time takes time to create content.

Leesa: Where am I gonna get the time to do that? So I think there's a couple of trends that I see when I go and have a look at people's social media stuff. And the two biggest ones that I've noticed are inconsistency.then the other one is a real lack of strategy. So doing the thing. And that's how I started just, oh, well that's interesting me, to me today I'm going to post that.

Leesa: Oh, now I'm gonna do this. What's the purpose of the processor? I don't know. Is there a per this call to action business? Like what earth's that? so yeah, it's, it's a really, it is a whole level of, of new skills that we get to learn. So for me, and as I said, I am not a marketing professional, but I've really honored that about myself. I've gone, okay, well let's lean into that a little bit. I'm

Caitlin: Yes.

Leesa: a bit, and like for me, whenever there's something that I resist, like I go and lean into it, there's a beautiful quote that, it goes, the magic that you are seeking is in the work that you are avoiding. And I'm like, oh, that's so

Caitlin: Oh yeah.

Leesa: Oh, I don't wanna do, I don't wanna do the post. I don't wanna put up a video. I definitely don't wanna have myself talking to camera on a story. So all of those things we feel resistance to, and especially for, for me, because you know, that fear of being seen, I'm so used to

Caitlin: yeah.

Leesa: just excelling quietly and I just go under the radar and I'm like the doings person.

Leesa: I'm not the visionary. Like all the, all the stories that I told myself about who I was and how I worked, and then literally just looking at, okay, well I'm feeling some resistance towards that. Let me just maybe go dip a toe in there. Dip, dip a little toe. And because I feel like resistance will, the things we resist will persist.

Leesa: Like they will just keep on showing up. Yeah. So if we can lean into those and just start to explore why that might be happening for ourselves, what are the stories, the thoughts, the beliefs that we're, you know, telling ourselves in regards to those stories and then taking some action. So what

Caitlin: the, yeah, that as well. The action part about the

Leesa: Yeah. We don't have to go and I'm gonna create a reel and go viral, and if it doesn't go viral, then I'm a failure. But just kind of going, well, what's the little bit I think I could do? So for me to start off with the little bit was I'm going to post three times a, a week in my group, and I'm gonna post about stuff that I think the group, you know, wants to hear about.

Leesa: So those sort of topics. So I, I stepped in, but it wasn't about me. It wasn't, it was just me starting. It was me getting used to posting and creating content and how big do the captions need to be and what's the bloody hashtag? Like all those things. It was just about, well, this is one little step, and then I'm like, okay, I can do that.

Leesa: I don't feel resistance to that anymore, but I still really feel resistance about putting a photo of me up.

Caitlin: up

Leesa: So yeah, so what am I gonna do? I'm just going to put up a nice photo of me and a little caption, and then I did it, and I'm like, okay, the world did not end. I am going to use some more photos. And then the more you do it, I don't know, the e maybe it doesn't get easier, but you've got sort of more capacity to continue to

Caitlin: exactly. That's the thing. It's just becomes a, well, it's like, I've done that before. It's, yeah,

Leesa: Yeah. And then just taking it to that next level. So, okay. I am all right with that. videos, how do I feel about videos? Ugh. Like where can I start there? What is, what feels. Okay for me to do and how can I just dip a toe in? And then once you've dipped the toe in, that's okay.

Leesa: So you just, I've just really kind of built up from there, I suppose.

Caitlin: great

Leesa: but yeah, I suppose leaning into the resistance,

Caitlin: mm, I really like that there's been. A lot of things you've said that I could imagine on. Yeah. Coffee mugs like a

Leesa: yeah, put them on the coffee mugs, on t-shirts. I'm gonna design my own range

Leesa: Yeah. You're so sure that mind blowing and t-shirts and swag. I love that.Yeah. All different sorts of things to, to lean

Caitlin: things. Yeah.

Leesa: feel hard, oftentimes we just, we go and make them wrong.

Caitlin: Yes.

Leesa: them mean something about us. so what I would suggest instead, what's worked well for me, if something feels hard, it's just more of an option to explore versus, well, it's wrong.

Leesa: Yeah. And that's.

Caitlin: Yes. We can explore it and be open to it for sure. Which is, yeah, it's like, yeah. It takes the pressure off, I think, as well, which is

Leesa: Yeah, I always think of it, it's like, you know, when you are going to the gym, like, and it's like, oh, I don't wanna go to the gym. And then when you get there, you're like, oh, I'm totally fine. You go to the gym like, and then you feel great afterwards. Like, woo, high five yourself. Almost think it's like that.

Leesa: we can't walk through a closed door, but if we can just open the door a little crack, then we can swing it open at some

Caitlin: And then

Leesa: But yeah, so thinking about what feels achievable to me, in this particular space, in this space of resistance.

Caitlin: Hmm. That's great. I really like that. We've kind of covered it a little bit, but maybe, or maybe this fee is a good stepping stone. Like what would you talk, like say to allied health professionals or OTs or anyone maybe with the, like the clinical background who are maybe thinking about doing something different, like maybe coaching, 'cause that is something that's starting to become more of a thing.

Caitlin: Like what would you say to people who are like, oh, I kind of, I'm interested in that, but I'm a bit too scared to start, or I'm a bit too scared because it's quite clinician.

Leesa: And isn't it interesting safe that just that little before we talk about the other bit, like the safe being a clinician. So we think about safety being employed, I don't know. I feel it's like a false sense of safety I have been made redundant three times in my career. Like that is a lot of times

Caitlin: a lot. Yeah.

Leesa: And it's because I have worked. I do understand it's because, for the, you know, the latter part of my career, I've worked in support services. So they're the nice to haves, not the needs to have. So when, you know, different changes around legislation, funding, whatever it looks like, you know, the support services are the icing on the cake and they get to get taken off first.

Leesa: So there, luckily for me, there has always been another job I was offered to go into. but at the time that was happening, I was a single mom to a small, like my little girl was only tiny then. And I felt that full responsibility on myself. So I certainly did not feel safe during that. So sometimes I feel like safety of employment, is it safety?

Leesa: Is it a fault? Is it a little bit matrixy? You know.

Caitlin: point. Yes. Yeah, matrix. Exactly.

Leesa: yeah, we feel like it's, is it actually, hmm? Is it actually, especially in volatile, you know, health and economic

Caitlin: Yeah. Yes. Different governments and all of that.

Leesa: So that's the, the first thing I wanted to say. And then the next thing in terms, you know, what would I say to somebody who wants to do it a bit differently is, I would say, number one, get really, really clear on your why.

Leesa: Clarity of purpose is everything. Like, once you know your why, the when, where, where, you know when, where, what, how it all falls into place.

Caitlin: Mm

Leesa: Your why is going to help guide your decisions. Your why is going to be like that little safety net when you are going out and doing things that feel uncomfortable and a bit scary and your why is also gonna get you through the hard days.

Leesa: 'cause business is not easy. Business is not easy, emotional rollercoaster, which is why it's so important for us as CEOs of our own businesses to be regulated. You know, so we can ride that and we can enjoy it versus, you know, being absolutely terrified beyond belief. but that's what I would, that was, that is the advice that I would, I would give people, always make a decision based on, you know, and you would know this on, on two strategies.

Leesa: You're either moving some towards something you really want or you are moving away from something you really

Caitlin: Yes. Yes

Leesa: most of us humans tend to make decisions 'cause the brain is wired for comfort. Isn't it? And safety.

Caitlin: it is.

Leesa: we will often make decisions based on moving away from something we don't want.

Leesa: But when we are moving away from something we don't want, like, that feels awful in the body,

Caitlin: it does. Yes, it, it is like, exactly.

Leesa: Ty

Caitlin: such a good point

Leesa: angsty. Whereas if we are moving towards something we really want, how good does that feel? I feel like that's abundance versus moving away from something which is that scarcity.

Caitlin: scarcity and the fear. Yes. Yeah.

Leesa: really explore the why, you know, why are you making, you know those decisions? Is it something woods or is it running away from something else?

Leesa: and get clear on that and that is the best place to start.

Caitlin: place. Yes. And then having the systems to be able to support the why as

Leesa: Hundred percent. But the why, like the systems, you've nailed it. Yeah. The systems support, the why the foundation is your, is your why. So if there's a dream of building a business or doing something different is like, you know, building a house your why. that's the foundation.

Caitlin: Foundation. Yes. And then everything else comes from out from there. Oh my, that's great. That's a nice, yeah. Image there.

Leesa: Yeah.

Caitlin: I, gosh, Lisa, I feel like talking to chief of ages, like, I can't believe the time has just like flown by.

Leesa: It has, hasn't

Caitlin: I'd love this. but before I ask you the kind of fun, rapid fire questions, is there anything that you wish I would've asked you or anything that you would like to say that's kind of popped into your mind as we've been talking?

Leesa: I, I actually think you've done wonderful wonderfully well in asking all of like, the hard hitting questions that I was kind of, you know, thinking we might cover. I think what I would sort of suggest as well when it comes to doing things differently once you know your why, pursue it wholeheartedly.

Leesa: You know, like it's just, most of the times it's just scary because it's new. So the way we make new things known is just by practice.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Leesa: So really just going, okay, we've, we've all got the skills we, we've learned, we know we can learn new skills 'cause we've already learned them. Like we learn how to be a psychologist or an OT or a speechy.

Leesa: Like we learned that we know we can learn skills. Now we just get to learn a different set of skills. Yeah. And if you are, if the other thing is with your, your why, it's usually also driven by your values, isn't it?

Caitlin: Mm,

Leesa: you are doing things that are aligned with your values, that's the sort of stuff that lights us up.

Leesa: That's what keeps us going, you know, because it doesn't mean that life is easier, but it definitely makes it easier if you are doing things every day, if you're doing the uncomfortable stuff, if you are doing the work, if you are learning new skills, if you are building, developing and growing and that is in alignment with your values, it is all going to feel purposeful and meaningful.

Leesa: And obviously being an ot, we're all about meaningful occupation. So,

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah.

Leesa: yeah, so that, that's the other thing I would say, like get clear on your why, get clear on your values, and then commit wholeheartedly to the experiment. That is business,

Caitlin: Business. Yeah. And framing it as an experiment is really clever as well. Like, you know, sometimes you might try something, it might not work, but then you've got great data to be able to do something differently and it's just

Leesa: I never would've started, I think, or I never would've kept going. I think if I'd thought about it as, you know, right or wrong or this or that, or black and white, really thinking about everything as an experiment has totally opened things up for me. And I think even coming from my background in quality assurance, we like policies, procedures, they're never final.

Leesa: They're a version of, you've got version one, version two. So I'm, I'm kind of used to thinking of things in versions as opposed to finalize. And I think that's helped me in business as well. It helps channel that, that mindset of experiment.

Caitlin: Mm. Wow. Oh, I love that. Oh my gosh, there's so many different things. I've been writing things down, I'm like trying to, yeah, I'm, I'm just thinking about like writing the head, like the title of the podcast and it's gonna be really hard because there's so many different good thing, different things to pull from, which is, I think that's a sign of a really like great conversation.

Caitlin: So thank you so much for being, a guest. but now like, which is like one of my favorite parts because it's a bit like silly and I never know what's gonna happen. is like the rapid fire question. So, Lisa, tell me what is your favorite film?

Leesa: I like, oh my God. So struggle with this one. 'cause I'm like, oh, but it depends on my mood and all the things. But you know what, I've gone back to old school, a movie that I can never say no to. Watching Days of Thunder. It was like, do you remember Days of Thunder? It's like, I, is it an eighties, nineties movie?

Leesa: Tom Cruise? Nicole Kidman.

Caitlin: Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Leesa: Car racer.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Leesa: Taking it on the high side,

Caitlin: Yes.

Leesa: good one-liners always makes me feel good, you know? Yeah. So I am gonna go with that one, Kalyn. 'cause I can never to watching it.

Caitlin: And what about a concert? You'll never forget

Leesa: the concept that I'll never forget for all the wrong reasons, is I went to home Bake at the Gold Coast back in the day and Friends of Rome was on and I was in the mosh pit and I fell over and I nearly died. Like I nearly got trampled to death. I remember just like laying on the ground going and my friend like kind of bounced over to me to pull me up and then bounced me out of the mosh pit.

Leesa: So I saw my life flash before my eyes, and that's my concert.

Caitlin: Wow, that you've just like unlocked a memory there for me. Like, I had a similar thing happen to me when I was at, it was like a heavy metal concert. I was like, yeah. And it was like, so I can't remember who it was. It was, I can't remember. It was playing, it might have been like Inus or something like that.

Leesa: Oh, I've seen them

Caitlin: metal, but yeah, it,

Leesa: No. You know, people get into the, the

Caitlin: they get really,

Leesa: Yeah,

Caitlin: and I think I

Leesa: And I just bounce wrong. Mm.

Caitlin: exactly like out of nowhere some guy just like grabbed my

Leesa: You do, they push down on your shoulder and you're like, I, like, I can just see people's feet. So yeah, that's,

Caitlin: I'm so glad that your friend, saved you from that

Leesa: she's still one of my best friends today because we went through that life death experience.

Caitlin: yes. Forever. They joined you.

Caitlin: what about like, what's an absurd or like a quirky thing about you?

Leesa: Yeah. Well,

Caitlin: A thing that you love.

Leesa: Hmm, well, I thought a little bit absurd was I nearly didn't become an ot. Because I got offered an audition at NIDA when I finished grade 12.

Caitlin: wow.

Leesa: And so I was like, oh, I might go and be an actress. Yeah, I'm gonna do indie films. I'm gonna do indie films and be, an actress. And then my mom and dad, we are from like a little tiny country town out west, like 500 people in the whole township.

Leesa: And I'd gone to, you know, boarding school 'cause we didn't have a school. And, I did drama, which was my favorite subject. I got, I got the award, I was so excited. And then, yes, I got this audition, for NIDA and oh,

Caitlin: a big deal, isn't it? Like, 'cause neither

Leesa: huge deal. It's the place to Mel Gibson with. And like Nicole Kidman, all like, all these amazing people, Russell Crow, like everyone kind of went there.

Leesa: So I was like, yes, I'm gonna go and do that. And then my dad said, you are not doing that, Lisa, because it was interstate. He's a country. He's, he was a country guy. He always wore, he is a Cora. He, you know, we were, we were Bush people. Bush people did not go interstate to become actresses. And, my darling father is just, he was so dear to me and I was like, okay, well I'm gonna go to Brisbane and do, T at uq.

Leesa: He was, that was okay. That was all right. That was within the state. He always thought I would go and sort of do something at uni anyway, so that was all right for him. So I have let go of my dreams of becoming an Academy Award-winning actress.

Caitlin: is this, is that something that you like do in your spare time, like in the theater or?

Leesa: No, actually when I was going through and doing ot, I did pick up some extra subjects in drama. but I haven't gone and joined

Caitlin: yeah, I'm just thinking, 'cause my friend, who's just recently joined the theater group out of like, kind of nowhere really surprising. Like, what do you, what do you mean you're joining the theater? And like it's loving it. Like it's really cool and like to watch in plays and things like that. And I think like, oh my gosh, it's amazing.

Leesa: I kind of feel like I get that little, you know, box kind or that little cup filled as part of mine. Pd. So no, I'm not out there being, you know, Joan of ARC at the Stake. That was literally one of my projects in grade 12. but I, I get to go in front of, you know, live and virtual audiences and deliver training,

Caitlin: Mm. So it's still, yeah. So you're still using it's Yeah, it

Leesa: Yeah.

Caitlin: a different way, but it's still

Leesa: in a different way. Yes, yes. So it's, that's something a little bit different, I suppose.

Caitlin: it is different. Oh, that's so interesting. yeah. But before we, finish, like how can people get in contact with you, like your website and your Instagram, is

Leesa: we can go onto the website, which is the mindful OT au or you can find me on, we've got the private Facebook group and Facebook page, which is the Mindful ot. I'm also on Instagram, the Mindful OT au, and on LinkedIn, Lisa Tufnell.

Caitlin: we'll put all of those, in the show notes as well and yeah. Wow, how cool that you do so much. I'm, I'm really excited to watch like what, what you do like in the future. And we didn't talk about that, like what's in store for you in the future, but maybe that can be another

Leesa: We will do another episode.

Caitlin: Yeah, that's it.

Leesa: I'm inviting myself back. Katelin.

Caitlin: I love it. I would love that. but no, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it. It's been, you.

Leesa: it's been amazing. Thank you.

Caitlin: All right. That's the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning into Healers with Hustles. If you've enjoyed today's episode, will you do me a tiny favor and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, and you'll be the first to know as soon as the new episode drops.

Caitlin: Thanks so much for listening. Okay, for now.