Thriving beyond burnout: Heartfelt insights on business and self-compassion with Dr. Hayley Quinn

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I'm Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

Caitlin: My guest today is Dr. Hayley D. Quinn, a clinical psychologist turned anti burnout business coach and the founder of Welcome to Self, a business dedicated to helping women reconnect with themselves to transform their personal and professional lives. Through her podcast and online community, she offers insights and strategies for service based business owners seeking to prevent burnout by prioritising self care.

Caitlin: Care practices, sustainable practices, and self compassion. Drawing from her own experiences with burnout, chronic illness, and solo parenting, Hayley helps clients thrive personally and professionally without sacrificing their well being.

Welcome Dr. Haley. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Hayley: Oh, my absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me on.

Caitlin: And I wanted to also say thank you so much for supporting the Facebook group, because you're someone that always comments on my posts it really means a lot because I'm not sure about you, but being in business and putting yourself out there and like, Particularly if you hear crickets, am I not doing a good job?

Caitlin: So I really appreciate all of your support. It's been fantastic.

Hayley: Oh, my pleasure. I think, one, Facebook groups are hard. To get engagement in and two, I think what you say is so true being in business, particularly, like I've, I've had my podcast for quite a long time. And sometimes I think, Oh, I wish people would email more and let me know if they're enjoying it or what they want to hear about, because you don't know.

Hayley: And you've got to trust that actually, you know, people are listening and people are seeing what you put out there and what you're doing is helpful. A lot of people don't comment and that's okay.

Caitlin: And that's alright. They can't…

Hayley: …make it hard, right?

Caitlin: They can, but you're right, there are people, even if they're looking, that's alright.

Caitlin: I think that's probably just because, for me in particular, I'm so new to business as well. So I've always got that little self doubt in the back of my mind. So I've had a lot of practice with self compassion lately, which…

Hayley: …wonderful, wonderful. Well, I'm happy to be a compassionate other and cheerlead you and comment on your, your posts and, and they're helpful because when I read them and I comment or, you know, engage with them, it helps me be self reflective as well. So thank you.

Caitlin: Beautiful.

Caitlin: Oh, so nice. And I've got so many questions to ask you, but I I guess we should maybe start at the beginning. Tell me about your journey of being a psychologist and your experience of working as a psychologist.

Hayley: Wow. Okay. Where should we go? I didn't ever imagine I'd be a psychologist, people who have, you know, Kind of listened to my stuff before now that I dropped out of school early, spent a lot of my life thinking I was stupid.

Hayley: It wasn't until my fourth year of my PhD that I realised perhaps I was actually an intelligent woman. So I finished my PhD and, you know, became a psychologist, went through all the hoops and things that you have to do to become a psychologist, did my clinical site registration and initially worked in a Private practice for as a subcontractor and then moved to a practice where we all actually ran our own businesses, but shared like a group space, which was really, really lovely. And, I'd also had some experience working in a private hospital as well. And I had been a single parent going through my Bachelor, my Honours, my PhD, and, you know, was doing too much, was working too many jobs, was trying to do all the things, and ultimately ended up very unwell with a significant burnout.

Hayley: So I had to make a choice to leave the practice I was at. And I didn't actually know if I was going to continue to be a psychologist at all because I didn't actually know if I was going to be able to work. Like I struggled to even put a wash in the washing machine. So it was like, so I started a home based business with a very small number of people.

Hayley: I'd had to say goodbye to most of my clients, which had been really hard and to my colleagues that I really loved working with as well. And then I just started very small doing a little bit. And from there I built my reputation In my practice and had local GPS referring to me and then GPS from all over the place referring to me and then I started to realise that actually doing that I was never full time full time but doing just that was not for me.

Hayley: Not really going to suit me long term. So that's kind of where I was at. Like I did that for a number of years, but realised that something had to change. I couldn't just keep doing that.

Caitlin: Yeah. What, what was that about? Was that because you were feeling like you were potentially going to get burnt out or was something missing?

Hayley: I think there were, there's, and I think this would stand true for many people who've been through a significant burnout is it's one of those things that you just never, ever want to go back to. Like, I think we can minimize what burnout means and it can be extremely impactful and extremely damaging on your health and your general life.

Hayley: So I knew that I had to work in a way that was going to prevent that.

Caitlin: Yes.

Hayley: And also I had been encouraged by mentors of my own saying, you should do supervision. I'm like, Oh, I'm not ready to be a supervisor. You know how we all, you know, you've been practicing for years and you've been doing informal supervision with your peers anyway.

Hayley: And I was like, no, no, I'm not ready to be a supervisor. And then I thought, actually, I really liked the idea of that. And when I have done sort of informal peer supervision, I've really, really enjoyed it. So I'm I went on and did my supervisor training and I added that to part of what my work life looked like.

Hayley: So I was seeing clients and also other psychologists and allied health professionals and I realised that I enjoyed them for different reasons but I liked having both of those. And then what started to happen is because I did have my own business and by this time I'd got on top of my health and I'd built my business up.

Hayley: I was doing trainings. I was doing all sorts of stuff like I'd gone from not being able to get off the couch to improving my health and being invited to speak at retreats in New York and present at conferences in London and things like that. And people started to Coming to me for supervision, but then asking me, I really want to start working for myself or I want to change how I'm doing things.

Hayley: Can you help me with that? And then I started realising, actually, I'm really passionate about that. And that really lights me up. And prior to being a psychologist, I had worked in various industries. I never thought anything of it. I'd been a PA to CEOs of companies. I'd worked in departments.

Hayley: I'd worked in advertising. And then I was like, Oh, this kind of makes sense now. Because people would say, Oh, I find the admin and business side really hard. And I'd be like, Oh, I actually don't. It's just. And then it dawned on me, it's like, well that's because of all the pre-psychology experience. So to be able to share some of that older knowledge and my current experience of being a business owner was, I just loved it and more people were coming to me.

Hayley: So it evolved quite naturally. And I just embraced it. So I now have a very, very small clinical load. I have a caseload of supervisees and I also have coaching clients and I run a group program and do trainings and things. So.

Caitlin: That sounds very fulfilling, but it sounds like it's evolved.

Caitlin: Like we said, very naturally and just evolve with what fit for you. And I love the idea that it sounds like people were really attracted to you. And so I was really curious about the type of marketing you were doing. That sounds like a lot of word of mouth,

Hayley: yeah, I don't know at the time I was, I was doing marketing.

Hayley: If only business was always that easy. Right. Because, and I'll clarify it evolved very naturally in terms of who was coming to me and what they were asking and what they were saying their needs were. But then for me to create my business the way I have, that was very intentional. That was very reflective.

Hayley: Do I actually want to do this? How much work do I want to do? What type of work? How many hours? 'Cause people will often say to me, Oh my gosh, sounds like you're so busy.

Caitlin: Yes.

Hayley: And I'm like, well, I actually don't work full time. I have lots of different things I do, but I don't. I'm not like cramming loads and loads of things in.

Hayley: But I don't think I was marketing. I think it was more, I was living more and more in alignment with who I am. And I was showing up on social media. I've had Instagram for a long time and I guess I was posting stuff, but not in a way to market or attract business. I was just kind of posting things about my ideas or snippets of videos and things.

Hayley: And I think that was perhaps just modelling something that people actually were really wanting.

Caitlin: Yeah, there was something in it that they saw and wanted to work with you. But I love what you said about how you've been very intentional with how you've set up your business and because you're right, it can be so hectic, but particularly in the start of it.

Caitlin: But if you don't have the boundaries or don't set it up in a way that works for you, well, it's not going to necessarily work in it. Yeah. And tell me I know there are conflicting like ideas in the space can you just do clinical work without burning out or do you think that psychs really need to diversify?

Hayley: Look, I think it's, it's different for different people. I don't know that we can give a better answer. blanket statement that you can't just do clinical work and not burn out. I think there's people who thrive on doing one particular thing, doing it well and keeping on doing it I am yet to meet somebody who does a lot of client-facing work.

Hayley: most days of the week, and is not feeling the impact of that. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not is a different thing. I've spoken to people who say, Oh no, I'm fine. I'm not burnt out. But then when you listen to them, you think, I don't know, it's just that you're not actually recognizing it.

Hayley: This is why I'm so passionate. One of the reasons I started doing this sort of, Human First is my perspective. It's, I, the podcast I have used to be called Welcome to Self Caring for the Human and Therapist Chair, and it was purely aimed at psychologists and allied health. I now have broadened that audience to service-based business owners, not just, therapists and allied health.

Hayley: But the reason I started that and I used to have a group during COVID as well, was because I'd be at trainings or listening to people and hearing them talk about the work that they went into because they really wanted to make impact and be of service to people and they were loving it but all the impact that it was having on them and that they just weren't really seeing it that you know not taking a break even to have lunch or skipping going to the toilet.

Hayley: Because they're, they're running over sessions and then trying to get into the next person without keeping them waiting. And I think if somebody in the waiting room can't wait for one or two minutes so you can go to the toilet, something is really, really wrong there. Right? So I… I'm really passionate about people realising that you can.

Hayley: You can be professional, you can be ethical, you can provide amazing service, you can create wonderful impact in the world whilst holding yourself in mind and taking care of your own well-being first.

Caitlin: That's beautiful. And it's such an important thing, but it's, it can kind of fall by the wayside, right?

Caitlin: Because yeah, we're in the business profession of helping people. And I think sometimes people get confused, that doesn't mean you've got to self sacrifice to help other people.

Hayley: And I, you know, I had a caseload of people, I got really sick and I actually had to end therapy with a number of people.

Hayley: Now, they found other psychologists, they get the treatment they need. Was that ideal for them? No, not at all. And it left me feeling absolutely awful because I had no choice. I had to say, I literally cannot physically keep coming to work and doing this. So if we take care of ourselves, we can actually take better care of the people that we're seeing.

Hayley: And we can do that for longer. So I think in answer to your question, I don't think there's a blanket, can people do it? I think it's really important that we get to know ourselves and we understand what impact, whether positive or negative, something has on us. And maybe somebody could be seeing quite a few clients in a day, more days than not.

Hayley: And somebody else could be doing the work, but say, you know what, three clients a day is my maximum over three days, or I'm just going to see a couple of people every day of the week, or I'm just going to do two full days. I think we need to really tune into what works for us. And for me, I'm late identified autistic ADHD.

Hayley: I now understand why it is I can't do the same thing over and over and over again, like the autistic part of me is like, yeah, cool. Let's do that. And then the ADHD part's like, give me some variety. So for me, having a number of different things in my business. It's just fantastic. I love it. I think it's about knowing ourselves.

Caitlin: Yeah. I'm glad that you said that. I guess that's going to be a theme of this, podcast. I totally agree that it's all about knowing yourself and having that awareness but then. Doing something with that awareness and modifying how we practise, not just being like, Oh yeah, that's how I probably should do things, but I'm going to do what everyone else is doing and see however many clients jam-packed my days.

Hayley: That can be the really hard part. I think one because, Particularly as we're sort of talking about psychologists allied health in this. One is there seems to be some particular beliefs within the profession of how things should be done. There are things that happen in training or for provisional psychologists that seem to set up This expectation of how things should be done.

Hayley: So I think there's that side of it, which makes it hard for people to say, well, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to go against what that is and do it my own way. But I also think it's hard from a personal level of actually stepping out and saying, well, I'm going to be different, you know, and it's not always that well received.

Hayley: I've been really fortunate to be honest. But I hear lots of stories from other people where it's not that easy. They're not getting great feedback from people. I'm really fortunate with the people in my life, or maybe I just don't listen to people that are trying to be negative about my life, because it's like, you don't have to live my life.

Hayley: I do. So I'm actually going to pay attention to me first. But I've had a lot of support in how I'm doing things. But I think that can be really hard to say I'm going to do it differently. And then all the your own on internal stories and blah that kind of shows up and I'm not good enough and I'm this or I'm that or I don't deserve it or whatever it is that shows up for you.

Caitlin: There's so many components to it aren't there? I never realised how much self-work I'd have to do becoming a psychologist. I'll become a psychologist. I'll help people and it'll be great. But now I'm just like, whoa,

Caitlin: Yeah. Listening to myself which is a beautiful thing, but sometimes it's challenging because it means I've got to do something about it.

Caitlin: And some days I'm like, no, I like being a little bit more ignorant sometimes, but

Hayley: I think, you know, that journey of becoming a psychologist or any type of therapist is its own growth journey. And then I'll often say to people, becoming a business owner is not about business. It's a personal growth journey.

Hayley: You can learn all the business stuff. You can learn all the, you know, what forms and what things and what platforms and what this and how do you do marketing and all that stuff. You can learn it. Yeah. But you come in such close contact again with yourself and your decision-making. And like you were saying, you put something out on social media and nobody responds.

Hayley: There could be thousands of people looking at your posts thinking, gosh, that was so helpful, but you might be lucky if two or three ever tell you that. So then you deal with that. If you've got anything, you know, imposter syndrome, self doubt, self criticism. That's the time that it's all going to show up.

Hayley: And it's reminding ourselves that I need, I need to be able to be with that. I need to be, for me, it's like, I need to be compassionate with myself that while sometimes that might feel really, really difficult, I can be with myself in a way that was really helpful and nurturing and I can't take it personally.

Hayley: And I can't know, I've had people contact me and say, I've been listening to your podcast for two years. I'd love to work with you. I'm like, oh wow. Okay. So some, somebody's listening then, someone's listening. someone, just my husband being nice,

Caitlin: learning and oh, lovely. But yeah, it's so right. And that's the thing we've gotta exactly.

Caitlin: Like sit with ourself and know ourself and how wonderful that you can help other people with that, through all of your different, yeah. Offerings and programs but tell me more about compassion and where your interest in that comes from and how you use it and I guess how it impacts our life.

Hayley: Yeah, well, that for me, you know, growing up, that was not a concept that was in my mind. I was extremely self critical and very detached from myself. And, I was at university, single mom, I think I'd just gone into post-grad and I came across a copy of Christopher Germer's The Mindful Path to Self Compassion book.

Hayley: I was at a conference in Sydney and Professor Paul Gilbert, who's the founder of compassion focused therapy and Dr. Dennis Tursh, who runs the, compassionate mind Institute in New York. I think that's what they call it. Sorry, Dennis, if it's not, they were doing a, two day workshop, I think it was. And one, they were really funny and I was just found it very engaging as training because not all training is right.

Hayley: And it just started to really resonate with me. They were talking about compassion focused therapy. And then I, as we do as therapists decided, I'd, I'd done a lot of work. training in acceptance and commitment therapy. I'd found that really helpful in terms of values work and present moment and mindfulness and everything.

Hayley: But I was looking for something else and I really resonated with CFT, compassion focused therapy. So I started doing more and more training and I attended trainings of polls and, and all the People that are doing some wonderful training, Russell Colts, Deborah Lee, lots of people, and I just loved it.

Hayley: And the more that I was learning about it, it's very much a framework that it's best embodied. and kind of delivered from the inside out. And it was just so profound for me that you could develop this part of yourself that was actually nice to you, you know, and was supportive and encouraging. And so I had, I was at a training with Dennis in Byron Bay and they… He was asking for volunteers to do a real play, and I was really quite unwell at the time.

Hayley: I'd gone down there despite feeling really unwell, and I thought, you know what, I'm going to volunteer for this real play, and I'm going to use my health issue. So we did a chair work exercise, and in one chair was my colleague, self critic. One chair was my anxious self and in the other chair, my compassionate self.

Hayley: And it really came home to me how brutal my self critic was and how anxious I was about my health, about how I might not be able to work anymore. I was, I had met my now husband a little while before that and lots of anxiety around he won't want to be with me because I can't do anything and I'm useless and there was just all this awful stories and then during that exercise i moved into the compassionate self chair and I had this experience where I really felt like I'd met myself for the first time.

Hayley: It was really, really profound for me and completely changed the trajectory of the relationship I've got with myself and the work I do. And as I connected, I had this really, really deep sense of knowing that I am enough. I am lovable. I am worthwhile. No matter what I'm doing, no matter what's going on in my life, whether I'm working or not, whether I'm well or not, that stuff doesn't matter.

Hayley: I am a lovable, worthwhile human being and I've always been enough. I just didn't know it. And as I connected, I literally just was sat there with my eyes closed. forgetting I was in a room full of people in a training as you do, and just said, Oh, welcome to self. And I actually went on to name my business that as well.

Hayley: So for me to see and feel that shift in how different life looks when you change the relationship with yourself and when you bring compassion to your life, not just to everybody else. Because I was very good at that, very good at that. But receiving compassion from others and giving it to myself was not, I wasn't great at that at all.

Hayley: Because I went through that experience and I lived that and i've seen that i'm just so passionate about. Passing that on to other people, why would I not be? It's like, and I love it and I love talking about it and I love it. I love it.

Caitlin: What a gift. When you're telling your story, it gave me goosebumps.

Caitlin: Yeah, welcome to self. How beautiful. What was that like after then? Did you really change how you did things or was it kind of a slow process?

Hayley: Yeah, like it wasn't a magical, I left Byron Bay and my life became wonderful. But I did things like started to ask for more help around my health.

Hayley: I started, I'd kind of given up on looking for help with my health, because I'd like, unfortunately, like many women, particularly with chronic illness, you can spend years. trying to get answers. And I've kind of given up. And then my self critic got me to a place where it's like, well, you're not worth it anyway, so you might as well give up.

Hayley: So I started explorations again. I started doing things differently. I improved my health, started really thinking about my work and what I wanted to do. And then as I did that, opportunities started coming. And like I say, I was invited. I was invited on to the committee for Compassionate Mind Australia.

Hayley: I became president of that. Had a giggle of that as like school dropout, never imagined I'd be president one day. So there was lots of this kind of reconnection with myself in a way that was more playful and fun. And then I would be, I was invited to present at Dennis's retreat in New York. I went to a conference and then there was an opportunity for some training of CFT, cause I've been doing a lot of training in CFT and Paul Gilbert had most generously, you know, mentored me and.

Hayley: Been a beautiful friend to me and an opportunity came up to present in Singapore. And I've contacted him and said, somebody would like some training in Singapore. Would you like to go and do that? He said, Oh, I'm going to be somewhere else. I think you should do it. And I was like, Oh, I can't do that. Paul, I'm not ready.

Hayley: And he's like, well, you'll never be ready. So just go and do it. So I, I was in Singapore for three days presenting training. And so, so things just started changing and I, because I had developed this compassionate self, I became more courageous. in saying yes to things rather than, well, I'm, I can't do that.

Hayley: I'm not good enough for that or whatever nonsense I was telling myself previously. And yeah, so it just evolved from there, but it's, it's an ongoing thing. I mean, I ran a workshop just earlier today and, some reflective questions. And one of the questions I get people to answer in the workshop is how do you speak to and I had answered that.

Hayley: For myself as they were doing theirs. And I shared with them that for me, it's kind, you know, kind and compassionately with understanding and grace, and sometimes I get frustrated and swear at myself. But thankfully that's rare these days. Whereas that used to be my default. My default now is my compassionate self shows up and it's like, it's all right darling.

Hayley: It's fine. You'll, you'll figure it out or yeah, it didn't go the way you want, but do you know what? You're a human being. It's fine. So that's been really nice, but it is, you know, it's an intentional process. I make choices every day to take care of myself. Like any relationship. Yeah. If you're in a relationship, you choose every day that you want to.

Hayley: Be a particular way, or it's helpful if you choose every day to do that . Why would it be different with yourself?

Caitlin: That's a great point about relationships, you've really gotta nurture it and do something. And like I always love, what Esther Perel says about relationships and love, it's a verb.

Caitlin: You've actually gotta do something. Absolutely. Yeah. I think, and that's so true for ourselves as well, like when those critical thoughts come up, it's about how you respond to it or maybe what it's showing you what they're trying to tell you.

Hayley: Yeah. I mean, if you, if you said to your partner or your friend or your parent or child or whoever every day, you're a bit of an idiot, aren't you?

Hayley: You're a bit of an idiot. It's like, oh, who cares? Oh, whatever, whatever. Like you just, they'd be like, Hmm, don't know about, don't know about this. Yeah, they'd be like, sure about this. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's important that we treat ourselves the way, We do speak to and treat people that we love.

Caitlin: Absolutely. And that, even that is so revolutionary about how we speak to ourselves for some people I should imagine. That awareness. Oh, actually I do speak to myself differently how incredible. And I had a thought, what are your favourite questions to ask, your coaching clients or your business clients?

Hayley: Oh gosh, that's really,

Caitlin: That's a big question.

Hayley: It's a big question, isn't it? I guess it would depend on, what it is we're working on. But one of the things I would probably say quite frequently is, so is that what you want?

Caitlin: Yes.

Hayley: You know?

Caitlin: I like that.

Hayley: When you think about doing that, how does it feel in your body?

Hayley: One of the things, and I think I did a post on this, when you kind of come up with a decision in your mind or think about doing something, does it make you breathe in or breathe out? Because I think sometimes when we make decisions, it's like, Oh my goodness. And, and then if it makes you breathe in, just check, is this just an initial kind of anxiety, like go present a three day workshop in Singapore?

Hayley: I'm sure I breathed in at that point, but then how can you be with yourself to see, is this actually something that I'm not meant to be doing? That's not aligned for me? Or is this just fear because I don't think I'm good enough or whatever story's showing up and then you can make a different choice? Or do you make a decision?

Hayley: And then it's this kind of out breath of like, You know, it just feels freeing or lighter or gives you that opportunity to exhale. That, that for me has become a little bit, I tune in then when I make decisions.

Caitlin: Yeah, that's, I love that you said that. I was actually just talking to a friend of mine who's made a really big decision in their business, but they said, you know, Caitlin, I knew it was the right thing because as soon as I made it, I just had that, like exactly what you said, that exhale and that just like sense of relief flooding me.

Caitlin: And so I think that's such a great point that you make there. But in terms of how you've. Restructure your work on being intentional with your business. What's the favourite thing about how you work now?

Hayley: I think the flexibility for me, one, I can work from anywhere cause I, I, I don't do any face to face anymore. Will I ever go back to that? Who knows? Maybe one day, but at the moment, all the stuff I do is online. So I can literally work anywhere. And I have family overseas. So at some point, you know, if I wanted to go and visit overseas, I can still be running my business.

Hayley: I, I used to start at nine o'clock or nine 15 in the morning. And I had noticed that I just felt I could feel my nervous system. And I think this is the benefit of getting to know yourself really well. And having real regular check ins because I'd started to notice in the mornings that my nervous system was getting quite activated.

Hayley: And I was working from home so it's not like I had a big commute or anything, but I still was feeling like I've got to get online by 9. 15 and I didn't like it. My body didn't like it. My mind didn't like it. So I was like, okay, what can I do about that? Oh, I work for myself. I could change the time I work.

Hayley: So I did. I, I spoke to some clients and I asked if they were able to move their appointment to a different time. And I was in myself knew that if that was not going to be okay for people who are already booked, I would just wait until there were no bookings. And I just wouldn't book anyone in those spots.

Hayley: So I love the flexibility, and the permission giving that I give myself. And I, I love the variety. I find that I can meet a lot of my needs in terms of some structure, some creativity, being connected with different types of people in different contexts, you know, different types of trainings, even like obviously my psychology training is It's quite structured in the types of things we need to do.

Hayley: My business stuff, I can just go, Oh, I'm going to go learn more about that. I'm going to try and understand that better. I've met some amazing, amazing people since diversifying my work, which has been a real blessing, and have met a lot of neurodivergent people. women in the business ownership, entrepreneurship space, which as a late identified neurodivergent women, that has been really brilliant.

Caitlin: So tell me

Caitlin: about that, about, being late identifying and why you, what you noticed in yourself or how that came to be to question that.

Hayley: That was, well, I was working as a psychologist, and as a supervisor. Obviously, there's more and more information coming out now, so I think a lot of people in the profession, not everybody, but a lot of people in the profession are updating their knowledge around that, as I was, and I would be talking with clients and thinking, um, okay.

Hayley: You know, it's not my area of expertise, so I need to send them somewhere else. So I'd send people for an assessment or suggest they went for an assessment that seemed to fit with them. I was supervising people and then I'd be listening to supervisees and I'd be asking questions of, have you considered it could be neurodivergence?

Hayley: So this was all starting to pop up. And then one day I was like, Oh, all these things that I'm saying to clients or supervisors are all things that are a lot of the things that I actually recognize in myself as well. And then I took a look around at the sort of relationships that had started to come into my life that I found very easy.

Hayley: And I realised that they were neurodivergent women and I had other colleagues who were kind of talking about their experience. So I'd ask somebody, could you give me a recommendation for someone? Cause as we know, when you are in the field, it's hard to. Find somebody you would recommend that you don't know and you can't see them.

Hayley: But then there was so much grief and I think lots of people who have this late identification can resonate that there's so many, you know, Feelings and a process to go through but the beautiful thing was I'd already built this compassionate self I'd or I was already very self compassionate. It was just more reason To be compassionate for all the struggles and the choices that led me completely down the wrong paths, you know, in my life and, you know, to, to sometimes very dark places, but there was this understanding of like, ah, well, of course that makes sense.

Hayley: And now what it allows me to do is say, well, of course the neurotypical way of doing business doesn't suit me. I have to do it my way. I have to find a way that actually suits me and the way my brain works and the way I enjoy doing things. So, it's been a really, my compassion focused therapy training has been one of the biggest gifts in my life.

Hayley: Getting the assessment has been another huge gift in my life.

Hayley: So yeah, it's, it's been, it's been interesting, but I love it. I was 52. I mean, I'd lived 52 years not knowing, so.

Caitlin: Not knowing and then, like. It's a huge, huge thing, but yeah, I was wondering about it when you said the grief part, I was wondering, about that.

Hayley: It's, it's been a, part of the evolution, yeah? Part of the evolution and I, and I've done it with compassion and grace and it's felt important for me to be more public about it because I think there are so many stereotypes and misunderstanding around what it means, particularly for women and girls, right?

Caitlin: Yes, oh for sure.

Hayley: And I had people who were very close to me, really lovingly say, Oh my gosh, I don't know. I would have picked that.

Hayley: And I said, well, of course I was 52. I've been masking since I was however old.

Caitlin: Yeah. It's a long time to be masking. Do you think that that contributed to your burnout at the start?

Hayley: Oh, I can't see how it couldn't have done. I can't see how it couldn't have done. No.

Caitlin: And so tell me about the future for your business. Are you going to

Caitlin: I don't know, will that somehow influence the services you offer or the types of coaching or?

Hayley: I've thought, I've thought about this. You know, I have periods, I'm, I'm reflective about my business on a regular basis because I think that's important when we are in business to keep, make sure its its values aligned and it's working and it's working for clients and it's working for me.

Hayley: And I had thought about, is this. You know, people talk about, you know, it's really important to niche, niche, niche, and that can absolutely be true. And I've thought, you know, is this something I offer for people who are neurodivergent and at this stage, obviously my lights on because I attract a lot of neurodivergent clients in, in my, you know, all my domains of work.

Hayley: So for now. I'm just showing up as me and people will want to work with me or they won't. And that's totally fine. They all want to work with me in different ways and that's totally fine. But I'm just really comfortable in this season right now of doing what I'm doing, knowing that. If it doesn't work, then I can evolve it.

Hayley: And I've moved past this. I used to think I was flaky and I start things and I don't finish like finishing my PhD was, was really a significant thing for me, not because it was a PhD, but because I actually finished it. Now I kind of look and go. Actually, some things are not meant to be finished. Some things, sometimes we're on the wrong path and we actually are better off changing and doing something else.

Hayley: So, I just feel, actually as I'm talking about it, I've got a really warm feeling actually, because

Hayley: I'm just really comfortable where I'm at right now with what I'm doing. And I don't know that I've, Well, there's been many, many, many years in my life where I would never, ever have been able to say it or even imagine that I'd ever feel it. So, yeah.

Caitlin: Oh, how beautiful. That's so beautiful. And when you're talking about your PhD, I had a question about what you did it on,

Hayley: Well, it's interesting because. Once I'd done all my compassion focused therapy training, I wish I'd done it. I wish I could do another PhD. I considered doing a second one. And I was like, yeah, yeah, no, my compassionate self was like, here's some wisdom. Don't do that. But I thought, I wish I'd done something in compassion.

Hayley: What I did was my PhD was on the meaning of home for young people with disabilities living in long term residential care. And when I look at it and the impact it had, cause it was, had a service provider had

Hayley: So my PhD data went straight to source, which felt really meaningful for me, and when I look at some of the context of that, it actually was very compassion based because I could see suffering and I wanted to do something to prevent it, which is the definition of compassion, right? Yeah. And it was all about the meaning of home.

Hayley: And I reached out to some colleagues and friends a little while ago. Somebody had asked me a question about what is it you do? Why do people come to you? What are you known for? So I put it out to some people in my life and I might get a bit teary in a minute. And a very dear friend sent me a message and she said, you're an expert at helping people come home to themselves. When I think back to my PhD and the meaning of home, it really resonates. Cause for me, home is so many things. It's not just the building we live in, but it's, it's who we are and how we are and how we treat ourselves and, you know, really meeting the essence of ourselves so that we can change the relationship with ourselves so we can live a full and meaningful life that we all deserve.

Caitlin: Yes. Oh, wow. I feel a bit teary, you saying that because it's, yeah, I really feel that and it's so important. Like you said, a meaningful life, but it sounds like that compassion has always been there for you. Maybe looking back, but now, it all makes sense.

Hayley: As Jack Kornfield says, if compassion does not include yourself, it's incomplete, so.

Caitlin: I like that. I want to write that down. Oh, well This has been a fantastic conversation. I've really loved speaking with you. I feel, actually, I feel a sense of calm.

Caitlin: Oh, that's wonderful. Speaking with you. Which just goes to show that. I think being well in yourself has a ripple effect for other people.

Hayley: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's the thing. I think when we can, when we can bring compassion for ourselves, it, it helps us stay out of our threat system.

Hayley: You know, when we're in our threat system, we're hostile to ourselves and others. And I think if we can bring compassion to ourselves and we can develop that soothing system, then we can put more of that out into the world as well. And the world needs it, right?

Caitlin: Well, yes, particularly, now we really, really need it.

Caitlin: Definitely. But tell everyone how they can, get in contact with you and, you're in the middle of a launch, which the episode will be out after that, but definitely tell us about your program. Cause I'm sure you'll have a wait list.

Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. The, the, the doors are open at the moment, close on the 19th of June.

Hayley: So if this is aired after that, then there will be a wait list, which you can find on my website. So I have, I do one on one coaching, individual coaching, and I also have a group coaching experience called welcome to self time to thrive. And a lot of the stuff you and I've talked about. Is in that around your boundaries and getting to know yourself, your business, what works for you, how to say no to other people.

Hayley: So you can say yes to yourself, all that sort of stuff. And that the piece around implementation and action taking. So I'm most active on Instagram under Dr. Haley D Quinn. And that gets shared Facebook because I can't do all the things. So I just share the same stuff to Facebook. I am becoming more active in on LinkedIn again, Dr.

Hayley: Haley D Quinn. And my website is drhayleydquinn.com and I'm always happy people jump in the DMs or send me an email. I've got my podcast Welcome to Self with Dr. Hayley D Quinn and I love hearing what people think and what they'd like to hear about. So yeah, feel free to get in touch.

Caitlin: Beautiful.

Caitlin: Thank you so much. And I'll pop all of those links in the show notes too. But thank you so, so much. I really appreciate your time and your wisdom.

Hayley: Oh, thanks for having me.