The myth of the big break and the truth about thriving in creative careers with PhD candidate Lauren Moxey

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their healthcare hats for nonclinical creative caps. I'm Caitlin, a psychologist, turn copywriter, and this is healers with hustles.

Caitlin: Now I've got an exciting guest for you today. Lauren, who's a PhD candidate in the creative arts at JCU, where she's challenging the status quo with her research on national cultural creativity and human thriving in Australia's popular music ecosystem.

Caitlin: Hell yeah. While also equipping artists to thrive on their own terms. Unburdened by the weight of dream merchanting and unrealistic career narratives. Ooh, how.

Caitlin: well, welcome Lauren. I'm So thrilled that you agreed to come on the podcast today. How are you?

Lauren: I'm well, Caitlin, thank you so much for having me. I was really excited when I saw you were starting this project. it's such an important niche, so I'm really thrilled to be here and, talk to you about creativity and hustles and all of those good things.

Caitlin: But maybe if we start at the beginning and tell me a little bit about your story and your journey and your background and all that good stuff.

Lauren: Absolutely. Well, if I think back to my school days, music was always something I did, but it was never my main thing. It was, it was an extracurricular, endeavor that I enjoyed. I am that cool that I played the. Bassoon in high school. I also, played the piano for many years. when I finished school, I headed off into engineering at university and very quickly realized that it was not the right place for me.

Lauren: And then within about three months, I was enrolled in a Bachelor of music.

Caitlin: Famous last words.

Lauren: Exactly. So music eventually caught up with me and I realized that it was not just a side, activity for me, but something I, I really wanted to dig deeply into while I was young and had the opportunity to improve my, performance skills and also to. Understand better the theory behind music and why we, why music is important.

Lauren: and so I went off to do that, at a place it was then called Wesley Institute, which is also where I eventually met my now husband, Tim, who was a singer. And we used to play and sing together quite a bit. Actually, we, we don't get time for that so much these days. but that is where we met,

Lauren: When I was finishing my degree, we'd been going out for all of 10 weeks and we got engaged,

Lauren: and so that was sort of how we ended up on our journey of music teaching.

Lauren: After we had been teaching for a few years, we both decided that it was time to take our teaching out of our home. By this point, we had two children and it was getting a little bit hectic, me trying to keep two little boys quiet.

Lauren: I believe some are still online, have been seen. around the world ever since. And he got really positive feedback on, on the most part. it was something that I think really helped what we were trying to achieve with our singing school in terms of just raising his profile.

Lauren: when we opened our, our singing school, we had about 11 students that sort of. Sign up, date within a couple of years that had grown to, we kept hitting milestones and thinking, wow, this is great. We've got six, we've got 90. At our peak, we had over 220 students coming.

Caitlin: that's a lot.

Lauren: which was just such a wonderful community and we really loved our students.

Lauren: we did have some really wonderful family support. Which helped. but you know, it, it meant there were times when, say, only Tim could teach or I could teach. We couldn't really both teach together very often. which, then limits your income to some extent. and we had some really amazing concerts with our students.

Lauren: Different projects, musical theater productions. I'd come home from, from these days. I might have sat through four student concerts, my feet would be aching. I could barely move. I was so exhausted, but my heart would be so full. having student after student get up and conquer their fears and, and I'd get parents coming up to me afterwards, you know, in tears going, I had no idea my child could do that.

Lauren: So, you know, the show must go on. and I think the, the people at the club where we had the concert were quite relieved that I didn't give birth there in the auditorium. we also had a wonderful, team of staff. some of them had actually been students who then graduated and were able to help them grow into amazing teachers. So, it was a huge part of our life. 99% of it was wonderful. It was a lot of hard work. It was exhausting. There are always in business, you get some challenges.

Lauren: it was a really wonderful community. and then came covid. And as it happens, singing and Airborne pandemic viruses.

Caitlin: Yes.

Lauren: Online group programs that were meant to be practical were very difficult to do that. So we, we had to stop them sort of early in the piece because we could see that they weren't going to remain viable as well. but all the private lessons continued for quite some time because. It wasn't so much the lockdowns that hurt in that first year.

Lauren: It was actually the, new South Wales government's restrictions on room sizes, which I totally understand, you know, not particularly complaining about that. But our private teaching rooms were just too small for the eight meters square rule that we had in New South Wales. so. It was just a messy year by the time we could get back and use some of our space.

Caitlin: There was that big thing, wasn't there?

Lauren: There was such a stigma about that at that time. These days it's like you get a note home from school every second day saying someone's got covid. but back then and, and before the, the vaccine was available, you know, in terms of business, that could have been a real disaster.

Lauren: that was a, a stressful time. we obviously had our own children home during the lockdown, and our youngest was in kindergarten at that point, and our other two were sort of upper primary. and that was really hard as well. You know, you can't just say to a kindie kid, okay, here's your work for the day.

Lauren: And

Caitlin: Yeah.

Lauren: So that would've been, I, I don't think I could've gotten through that period had I had to move everything back online and, you know, try to manage a business and staff and everything. we were. Relieved that we didn't have to deal with. I mean, we were still doing some teaching, but we'd, we'd scaled down what we did significantly and we were relieved not to have to deal with the same volume of, of, student numbers that we had dealt with the first time it all went online.

Lauren: and I'll always. Yeah, just reflect back and, and look at all those lives that we had the privilege of being part of, some of whom start teaching for 10 years.

Caitlin: Wow, that's a long time.

Lauren: so you see these young people grow up and turn into adults and many of them were still in contact with, which is really wonderful. So I think that was a very long answer to your question about my story.

Caitlin: I guess like engineering and maths, it's all about problems and understanding the why and how things go together and all of that, which is kind of similar to what you are in which what sounds like you're interested in, in music, like understanding the theory and how that works.

Caitlin: Hi, healers, editor Caitlin here, just a heads up, there's a, a little bit of a problem with the audio, so it might seem a little bit wobbly in places. so you might just have to deduce meaning from what we're talking about. okay. Back to.

Lauren: Definitely. Yeah.

Caitlin: it's

Lauren: come arts from quite a theoretical perspective. I'm not a natural performer. I, these days I rarely perform. I sort of finished my music degree and realized I don't like performing. but that's okay because there is so much I can do in the arts world that isn't performing.

Caitlin: I just thinking of even just public speaking, like even speaking on a podcast, it freaks me out a bit. Like even on my own podcast, I get freaked out and so I think that's just next level performing. how was that like for you when you first started?

Lauren: That is a very good question.

Lauren: So for me, when I get up to perform on piano or, or any other music, especially if it's a solo type situation, being in an ensemble is a, a little different.

Lauren: The thought that goes through my head at that point is, why did I say I'd do this? And I, I, yeah. Yeah. Whereas my husband, Tim, he's an incredible performer and that is where he is. At most at home is on stage. for him it's the chatting to people afterwards that's really stressful. but put a microphone and, and a band and he's in his element.

Lauren: I lecture at the moment in, in music and also in psychology, which again, I love doing. But there is that nervousness, in terms of the, the performative element of what I'm doing.

Caitlin: Absolutely. That's so cool that you lecture. and then psychology too. What are you, what, what are you lecturing or teaching?

Lauren: This semester I am, I'm involved with two subjects. the first is called Formation three. It's one of a series, and it's talking about character formation, professional and personal development, career goals. That's.

Caitlin: Wow.

Lauren: and it. A, a grad dip program of students who are, wanting to go on and do a master of social work. so everything we are doing has that lens of, of not just the theory of psychology, but how does this actually relate to social work? And we have the most wonderful conversations. about life and culture.

Lauren: A lot of my students are from other countries and I love learning about their experiences. we talk about the theories and whether they hold up across, different cultures. because as you would know from your background, a lot of them were based on sort of white European men.

Lauren: Or Americans because that's just where the research was coming from.

Lauren: so it's really wonderful being able to add that extra level of nuance to those theories.

Lauren: Well, actually this is a funny one that happened this week, in my career, and I'm sure other people can relate in their own contexts. There've been moments where I, I felt old. So the first time I felt old was when I realized some of my piano students were born. After I finished school, I. It was kind of that first time in my life.

Lauren: And then there've been other, other times along the way. like when students, I had taught since, you know, primary of in infant school, graduated, things like that. But yesterday, oh no, sorry, Wednesday, I had one who, where, I'll do that again, but this week I had a student whose mom is younger than me.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, for sure.

Lauren: Of needs. 'cause I think, you know, it's not a perfect model, but it's a good one. we've talked a lot about the work of Brene Brown, who I.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Lauren: And everything that she does. and I can see in my students this recognition, you know, they start to see themselves in this research and, and understand how it applies to their lives.

Lauren: All kinds of impacts from, psychological impacts to financial impacts. The, the instability and precarity of that work can really affect people. And my first reaction was, why didn't anybody tell me this before I started out? I

Lauren: mean, maybe it's one of those things, if I had known, I would've been too scared.

Lauren: I would've just gone and worked in, engineering or something. but I, I'm a big believer that knowledge is power. I.

Caitlin: for

Lauren: And I, I think that that's, you know, the next phase of, of academia 'cause it's in all kinds of mess at the moment. I think if we can learn to bring our research to the communities and the people whose lives it can change, for the better, then, you know, academia will survive to see another day.

Caitlin: But how cool that you're studying Brene Brown. 'cause Brene is an incredible example of how all of her research she's brought to the business community. So that's, oh, how fun. That sounds really fun. I wish I did stuff like that at uni. But tell me more about your research and how that's going and what your biggest findings are, if you feel comfy sharing.

Lauren: So I am hopefully. Fingers crossed, planning to submit this year. So I'm right at the end of things. COVID certainly threw a spanner in the works, and I had to kind of redesign the research that I.

Caitlin: yeah.

Lauren: So the creativity that emerges from a given nation. So. My context is Australia. So that's what I've been looking at. So nacio, cultural creativity and human thriving in creative ecosystems. So how does Australian popular music impact the human thriving? Of audiences and also of the musicians who create it, because we have a bit of a paradox.

Lauren: I I don't think we really need research to evidence that people love listening to music and especially popular music. But we, we consistently see that musicians, as I mentioned before, there are some really high rates of mental illness, of financial precarity and, and you know, poverty, amongst musicians.

Lauren: and what I've found is that it, it isn't just imported American music. We have our own unique flavors of things. Sometimes they're very subtle, you know?

Caitlin: Interesting. Yeah.

Lauren: yeah. About Oz Rock. That's a really good example of when, I would call it strong NAIA cultural creativity. we saw lots of, you know, overt Australian this in, in our music.

Lauren: Think about this. the song Down Under

Lauren: that was unmistakably Australian. And that people would look at that and feel a sense of connection and belonging. Now, I'm not saying everybody loves a rock, but you know.

Lauren: Completely. and, and it's not just that sense of belonging. If we consider, Maslow's hierarchy, we can see at different levels of that how music can contribute to our different needs. Now, I would argue that it contributes better to some need. Than others. and again, it's different whether you're in the audience or whether you're the person on stage.

Caitlin: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lauren: working in music, you might find that you just don't earn enough money to satisfactorily, fulfill your physiological and safety needs. For example, you might live in Sydney. Housing is frighteningly expensive.

Caitlin: Yeah. Rock wild, isn't it?

Lauren: Yeah, so it's, it's stuff like this, and I think that's also why I was really excited about your podcast, this acknowledgement of, what academics would call this slash work when you are combining work.

Caitlin: Oh, I love that.

Caitlin: Cool.

Lauren: And I think that slash careers are really important part of, maintaining the sustainability of the music industry and other forms of the creative and performing arts as well. But there are some challenges, and I'm guessing you've experienced some of these as well in terms of juggling your time between competing fans and even just the head space.

Lauren: I know having worked in multiple different roles simultaneously, say you have 40 hours worth of work booked in, it very often amounts to way more than 40 hours of headspace.

Caitlin: Yes, so true.

Lauren: just back to that idea of the uniqueness of our music, I think it's really important that we explore on a community level as well. And that is something I haven't been able to do in my research or I would literally never finish it. But the idea that, you know, different towns and cities and regions can have their own unique expressions of creativity, whether that's in music or in visual arts.

Lauren: in acting all, all the different, ways we express our, our creativity. I think it's important for the people within those communities. Again, it generates a sense of belonging, of being part of something that's bigger than yourself. It also creates interests. when you move around Australia or the world, I don't know if you remember as a kid going into state and it would be like you were going to an alien land.

Caitlin: Yeah, definitely.

Lauren: in Australia. And you'll see Maccas, KFC, all the sort of standard. outlets, even though I remember when, Myer used to be Grace Brothers in New South Wales.

Lauren: I'm not sure about Queensland. Did you have Maya or Grace Brothers up there?

Caitlin: I feel like it's always been, I've always known Myers,

Lauren: Okay.

Caitlin: I don't, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it wasn't

Lauren: Yeah.

Caitlin: before. So I'm 90, born in 91, so.

Lauren: I.

Caitlin: The changes, it's, yeah, I remember going down to. Born and bred and then yeah, traveling down to Victoria and even it, Woolworths wasn't called Woolworths, it was called like Safeway or something like that. Like even things on that level. It's

Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, I love the different names for Devon around Australia. So I think in, in South Australia they call it Fritz

Caitlin: ah, is that right Fritz?

Lauren: and you know, it's just, I mean, it doesn't really impact anyone's life, whether we call it Devon or Fritz or whatever the other names are for it, but. We all have such a strong, connection to where we are from and, and I realize where we're from.

Caitlin: Yes. That's so fascinating because it's so, like such on such detailed level, like breaking down cultures or breaking down music industry on that level. That's incredible.

Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, you think about film clips, sometimes you'll watch a film clip, and you'll recognize places that you've been and then you might recognize places and you know they're Australian, but you haven't actually been there. I. And then other times it might be just way more generic, or overseas and you don't recognize it, you know?

Lauren: During Covid, obviously the, all the pivoting to online expressions of the arts was really amazing what people came up with. but it's interesting how quickly people went back to those in-person experiences because they just really missed that, that full sensory experience.

Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah. How so? Every, most people have transitioned back to face-to-face. Now has there been any big changes apart from maybe lectures in Zoom or that kind of thing?

Caitlin: yeah. Hugely.

Lauren: Go out and, and just experience the world. I think that we are using Zoom now more for convenience and access.

Lauren: So for example, you and I to do this in conversation would've really been not just cost prohibitive, but it would've felt wasteful as much as I would've loved to have come to you and had a coffee, you know, it would've. Day or more and all of that kind of thing, whereas we can do this, then we both get on with our day and, you know, we wouldn't have had this opportunity so much before, COVID, I mean, well we, to be fair, we did, but it just wasn't as socially accepted.

Lauren: and now we're also seeing, you know, people, connect with with others who are further away. and. When life gets busy, you know, I still have some piano students who learn online and it works really effectively for them. It wouldn't work for everyone. but when it works, it's brilliant.

Lauren: Out dirty Southerners wouldn't let us.

Caitlin: that's,

Lauren: And you just, and I was very jealous.

Caitlin: yeah. I know. It was, oh, it was really, nothing. It was hard.

Lauren: Townsville 'cause I, I'm studying with, James Cook University and it was during a period of reduced restrictions. I flew in and we all got off the plane and the police were there to greet us, just to check that we all had our documentation and it was quite confronting.

Caitlin: Visa thing and he said, yeah, just traveling. It was wild. Like people going around in haz man suits and. It just sounded like, Apocalypse World, but yeah. But then to be treated that way

Lauren: Yeah,

Lauren: totally.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah. Oh my gosh. But tell me more about, like Maslow's hierarchy of needs and the music industry and what you found.

Lauren: Absolutely. Well, I, and I think this applies to the arts beyond the music industry as well. If we think about Maslow's hierarchy as having, there are multiple different models of it. I really like the one that has eight levels. it kind of finished off on his behalf after he died because people found Maslow's Notebooks and sort of, inferred where he was heading with it.

Caitlin: Right.

Lauren: Now, you might say you can live with low self-esteem and without belonging, but, it, the quality of life at that point is, is pretty low.

Lauren: Then beyond that, we have what he called the growth needs, which would be cognitive needs, aesthetic needs, and the needs for self-actualization and self-transcendence. Now, self-actualization is about becoming as good as possible at something. And self-transcendence. It sounds very woo, but it's, it's about experiencing this sense of unity and oneness with the world.

Lauren: And I like to think of it as the point where we turn around from the mirror, where we've been looking at ourselves and we look out at the world and we see how we can contribute

Caitlin: That's beautiful.

Lauren: That's a common misconception of the pyramid. He's not saying everything has to be perfect before you move up to the next one. It's not like a video game with levels. he does make the argument, and I think it's, it's a valid one that, for example, if your physiological need for food is unmet, it's gonna be really difficult to, focus on learning to fulfill your cognitive needs.

Lauren: In World War ii, we see examples of people who had so many of their basic needs severely compromised and, and yet had these incredible experiences of self-transcendence where they very self selflessly would help the people around them.

Lauren: You know, I, I think we probably, I can't. Say this definitively, but I, I believe we have more people who are trying to work in the creative and performing arts than that industry can sustain with full-time incomes. So there just isn't enough work to go around for everyone who wants it. and so for, for those reasons, those bottom needs can be, yeah, just go really unmet.

Lauren: And will impact your esteem in the long run, especially when you then want to do things like have a family, you know, maybe buy a house. Not that I'm suggesting home ownership is the be all and end all, but you know, you start to have to choose between your career and the typical life milestones that you see your peers experiencing.

Lauren: What the arts does very well is to support those top needs in both the audience and in, performers. the need for beauty, the need to be mentally challenged, whether that's through, learning theory and mastering and instrument, or whether that's, you know, the way that the arts makes us think in, in ways that nothing else does, you know?

Lauren: Joy.

Lauren: Now, I'm also not saying that musicians shouldn't be paid. An artist shouldn't be paid. I, I very much believe that if you are performing at a professional level, and especially if someone has asked you to come and do your thing, that you should be paid. but. This might be controversial, but the world doesn't owe artists an income.

Lauren: Just because you do art, just because it's good, does not mean you're entitled to an income from that because we have the, the forces of the market and is there actually demand for what you do? Maybe there is, but maybe there isn't. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but it means you shouldn't expect the income from it.

Lauren: when I first started thinking that, I think I pushed it out of my mind a little bit and, and sort of, it's not gonna be a popular thing to tell people, but I think we need to be more honest with, with artists, their career prospects. there's a lot of what my husband and I refer to as Dream Merchanting that goes on in the industry.

Lauren: It's that whole idea of come and learn from me and I'll make you a star.

Caitlin: Hmm. And yeah, Tim had an experience of that in the voice, right, because that's literally what it's about, isn't it? Like they choose people and.

Lauren: Yeah, I, I see what you mean. But I couldn't honestly say that the show gave him that impression.

Caitlin: Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Maybe it's just how it's edited or something like that.

Lauren: Oh, cool. That's good.

Lauren: definitely have some problematic cultural narratives around arts careers

Caitlin: Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Lauren: of being extraordinary.

Caitlin: Hmm.

Lauren: I. The other day, and it was talking about, accepting the simple joy of a, of an average life. And when we see a child, especially a child or a young person, and they are really gifted in a particular creative domain, we can inadvertently give them really unrealistic expectations of their future.

Lauren: And that's certainly what happened to my husband growing up in different contexts. That whole, you know, because he, he was obviously a very good singer, and people would do the whole, oh, you're gonna be famous, you'll be on tour. You know, and, and so when these things don't transpire, it can lead people to feel like an utter failure

Caitlin: Yeah,

Lauren: how many people just as talented as Justin Bieber have videos on YouTube that never get discovered?

Caitlin: Yeah. Wow, that's such a good point as well.

Lauren: there's a really great book, by Musgrave and Gross that, they're from researchers from the uk. It's called Can Music Make You Sick? And one of the points they make in that is that pursuing a music career, and their mentality that goes behind that has some overlap with the mentality behind problem gambling.

Caitlin: Huh. Wow.

Lauren: Because they're not really in the media. we don't, we don't have a, a news article about, you know, unknown musician does. Gig is very good, but no one really cares. We see Taylor has a tour.

Caitlin: So that's it. And that's even, I think, a really nice thing to like, for the listener takeaway as well. Like just because your business or something like that might not be as big as another business, it doesn't mean that they're doing a better job than you. It just might mean that Yeah, like PR or something that, that for some reason they worked with someone that then refers them more work and they get their name out some way.

Caitlin: It's not necessarily a reflection of Yeah, like who you are or what you are, how you are doing.

Lauren: It's not merit based, not in the slightest.

Lauren: Five years of PhD thinking. So now captive audience, I can tell them all my feelings.

Caitlin: All our insights and, that leads like.are you gonna write a book or something like that? Is that, how are you gonna distribute your learnings?

Lauren: I've started my own substack. I have one post on there so far. I actually started

Caitlin: good one.

Lauren: Yeah, well, I, it just came to me one day and I thought, I'm gonna start with this because I feel like anyone who gets that poem, they'll really resonate with the other stuff that I'll be talking about on there.

Lauren: So that's the, plan for the immediate future, is to develop the content on there. perhaps when I've finished my thesis, I might feel like writing a bit more. but I, I certainly have a sense that this is a message people need to hear and. You know, we were talking earlier that, feeling nervous and, and all of that kind of thing.

Caitlin: Yeah, that's, that's devastating, isn't it? That's what the world needs. Is those Yeah. Interesting. Quirky, like quote unquote weird. Perspectives I feel that. But like it comes back to what you were saying and it's now bigger than you. It's bigger than that. Do you feel a sense of responsibility now?

Lauren: It's a really good way of putting it. You know, I've got this information, I can't just keep it to myself. 'cause as I said, when I started this, my first reaction was, why didn't anyone tell us that this was going to be hard? I.

Caitlin: Like even just that in itself is massive. Mm-hmm.

Lauren: Absolutely, and, and also it, it empowers people to really think intentionally about their careers. And as you do not feel like a failure when they don't become that full-time touring musician. and to, to recognize the dynamics of the industry that, that are at play that they have no control over, but also to not give up on.

Caitlin: Yes. Yeah, exactly. And it'd be, yeah, a bit. I. Boring as well, but we need the diversity. That's it. Oh, I've love this, conversation. Before we, wrap up, I, have a few rapid fire questions that I forgot to tell you about before we started and so, I very appreciative that, you are answering them. but what is your favorite film, Lauren?

Lauren: I think I'd have to say goodwill hunting.

Caitlin: Oh my good film. Yeah. Cool. What do you love about it?

Caitlin: Yes. That's, Hmm. Such a good, oh, I really like that film too. And then what about, I feel like this next question, you're gonna have so many answers to this, but what's a concert you'll never forget?

Lauren: I would have to say the John Hanham concert that I went to. It one of those I didn't even know it was happening till right near it. And I bought tickets on a whim. Our second child was just old enough to leave overnight. And so we dropped our two eldest boys to my parents and you can appreciate the, the logistics involved in all of that.

Lauren: And because of the height of the stage and whatnot, he actually spent half the concert leaning over and singing. and I've just never seen any, it was almost like this pilgrimage to John and it was really amazing to see the way that he welcomed those people. It would've been so hard to sing like that, and how meaningful it was for them to have that encounter with him.

Lauren: And I mean, just an extraordinary talent. you know, very. I was gonna say underrated. He's obviously very popular in Australia, but I don't think people fully appreciate, what a skilled singer he is.

Caitlin: Well, I have two and they're kind of related. One is I'm a diehard neighbors fan.

Caitlin: Oh wow.

Lauren: For the last, oh, probably more than 20 years, I have watched neighbors faithfully. I remember in my uni days I would call home and I'd be like, I'm not gonna make it back for neighbors. Can you tape it for me? Of course, these days that's much easier with, catch up TV and when they let, when they askeded it a couple of years ago, I just sobbed through the last episode.

Lauren: and you can imagine my joy when it has returned. so that. You know, filled a big hole that was in my heart, left by neighbors. The other one is that I also really love BC and degrade, extreme weather movies. So not the A Grade ones, not like Twister. That's too, too good. I mean, I did love it, but you know, the, the worst they are the better.

Caitlin: I didn't know it existed, like it makes sense that it would exist. That's so excellent. I'm just imagining like there must be like Reddit threads on. So awesome. but oh, this is so fun. Lauren, how can people get in contact with you?

Lauren: They can visit me on Substack, so it is untangling creativity.substack.com. and that is where I will be recording my thoughts and, and. I guess I'm not just about identifying the problems, but about helping people find a new way forward. helping us to redefine what it means to be an artist, and to, to thrive.

Caitlin: Aw, that gives me goosebumps. Oh, it, yeah. I'm so, so like thrilled For what you're doing and how much of an impact it's gonna have on so many people. That's very cool stuff. Yeah, very cool stuff. What would you hope that listeners take away from our conversation?

Lauren: I think it would be if the world doesn't give a shit about your creativity, make it anyway.

Caitlin: Yeah. That's nice because that's often something that people, Worry about is that I. Other people won't like it or won't get it or something like that, but do it anyway.

Caitlin: Aw, what a beautiful message and, yeah, makes me feel a bit emotional, so end it with me sobbing.

Lauren: I have that effect on people.

Caitlin: Aw. A good sign, I think. I think that's a really good sign. but this has been great. Thank you so much for, this and keep in contact.

Lauren: Absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. I've been listening to your other episode, and I just can't wait to hear more from your healers with hustles.

Caitlin: Thank you so much. Makes me, all warm and fuzzy. Thanks so much.

Caitlin: All right. That's the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning into Healers with Hustles. If you've enjoyed today's episode, will you do me a tiny favor and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favorite podcast platform, and you'll be the first to know as soon as the new episode drops.