Healing through creativity: Anna Oliver on burnout, being a psychologist, and podcasting

Caitlin: Hello, hello. Welcome to the place for offbeat health professionals who have bravely swapped their health care hats for non clinical creative caps. I'm Caitlin, a psychologist turned copywriter, and this is Healers with Hustles.

Anna Oliver is a passionate enthusiast, psychologist, and podcaster working individually with adults and adolescents based in the rural coastal town of Leeman, WA. Through her humility, humor, and compassion, and lived experience of childhood trauma and mental illness, she provides deep insight and empathy in connecting with clients and empowering them to reach their goals.

Anna's favorite motto is, you can change your life.

Well, welcome to the podcast. Anna I'm so excited that you're here.

Anna: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Caitlin: I'm keen to pick your brain because, I've got my notepad here as well because I'll probably take notes about like all your advice and wisdom from your podcast for sure.

Anna: thank you. Sure. Go for it.

Caitlin: before we do that, Why don't we start at the beginning and tell me a little bit about your psychology journey and like maybe even why you started a podcast and all about that.

Anna: Yeah. Yep. Sure. So I'm Anna Oliver. I, oh gosh, it's like you're trying to think back of when, you know, you started uni and all that stuff years ago. yeah, I went straight to uni after school, sort of knew I wanted to be a psychologist from when I was like in my mid teens, smashed out for four years. yeah.

And then because my priority was partying and drinking as you do at uni, I didn't try as hard as I probably should have. So, in terms of like getting into masters, that was going to be tricky. But after four years, I was like, I need a break. I'll just go and work in the industry and just do some travel and stuff like that.

and then, yeah, met a lovely girlfriend that sort of told me about the four plus two program. Cause I'd looked at it, but I sort of was like, that seems really far fetched, you know, when you read the big, all the guidelines of what you need to achieve. And I thought, where are you going to find a job that could do that?

So anyway, girlfriend sat with me and we did that application together and she introduced me to my supervisor. So yes, smashed that out within two years. But yeah, I spent a few years working at like a youth centre, as well as a high school. So that was, you know, great introduction to like kids and adolescents and family work and talking to parents and, you know, lack of school attendance and all that sort of thing.

And then I got a job with Holyoak as a drug and alcohol counsellor. So that was a huge learning curve as well about addiction and trauma and the medical side of things. So,yeah, another awesome opportunity. And then I got a job in a private practice. in Fremantle. So I worked there for a little while and yeah, by the end there, I burnt out. So then I quit psychology for about two years or something,

Caitlin: Oh

Anna: moved up, had a sea change. Yeah. So I moved up north. So we're three hours out of Perth now. Had a bit of a sea change, just chilled out for a bit. And then, yeah, started my own private practice.

which I just, yeah, which has just been huge and awesome just to be my own boss and call the shots and things like that. And then, yeah, last year, just towards the end of the year, I was like, I just got this creative itch and I just had to scratch it. And I had all these, as I do, I have all these different ideas and then it's like sitting there being like, okay.

You got to actually pick one.

Caitlin: I love it.

Anna: yeah. And then it was like, okay, cool, podcast. I just, yeah, I didn't even know where the idea came from, but it came to me and I literally wrote my like, And like, not a business plan, but a plan of like my vision, my questions, how it was going to work. I done. I literally wrote all that in like the morning and then the next morning I just sat online like Googling, how do you do a podcast for free?

Caitlin: And then, yeah, within a week I was interviewing other psychologists. And it's, yeah, it was just a bit of a creative venture really. I love how you yeah had like a little itch for something creative and then, but then you went and did it. Like are you quite a creative person and that's something that you found was missing or?

Anna: yeah, it's an interesting question. Like, cause you sort of think creativity, you think like art or music. And so in that sense, no, but I would say that there was something missing, like, you know, working one on one with clients is amazing and awesome, but I suppose, yeah, there is this part of me that wanted to kind of. Step outside the box. have a bit of fun, I guess, do things in a bit of a different way. So I'd say maybe I am because in certain things, like I'm that person that like, if I host a dinner party, like the whole table is like decorated with like glassware and I love cooking and making things pretty. So I think in some respect I am.

So I think it's been really nice to tap into that in a work way as well.

Caitlin: You're so, so right there. I'm so curious about, the question about like creativity and burnout and how that works, and I don't know if it, if there is a relationship, I can't really find a lot of research on it, but how did you, like when you were burnt out, how did you recover from that?

Anna: Yeah. So. As we, you know, we all need an income. Perfect world would be you quit and just chill out. I, you know, just thought I'd get out of the industry completely. So I worked with my sister in law at her food company. So it was like completely different role. which, you know, you still use your psych skills, right?

So I think just having a break from that. heavy responsibility of the one on one client work.I guess, yeah, not feeling that huge sense of responsibility or that I had to fix people or have to, yeah, prove myself. So I worked there for a year and then we decided that we'd move up north and where I am now, like, There's not many opportunities for work.

So our sort of thing was, you know, financially, we were in a position that it was sort of like, I'll just have some time off, you know, I'll get pregnant right away, which never happens.which was good in the end. So I was very privileged and lucky that I actually did get A really decent amount of time off.

And for me, I think that was, your nervous system got to relax. You've got to really reconnect with yourself. I think sometimes the only way to tap into what you really want, whether that's creativity or with work, the only way you can do that is by slowing down. And like I said, it's not.

Always an option financially. but I'm sure I would have gotten there at some point anyway, even if I had been working, cause I just would have been having a break from that full on psych type role. So for me, yeah, it was just lots of rest, rejuvenation therapy, and just having some space really.

Caitlin: Yeah. You're so right there. Like the space to be able to think and like a nervous system to. Yeah, calm down and rediscover who we are. I don't know what your journey, like, psych journey was, but I felt like I kind of lost myself a little bit. Like, my whole identity became psychologist and I almost, yeah, it really was a bit of Journey of going to therapy and then also clinical supervision, I found out, I realized that I was talking a lot about how I was in my clinical supervision.

Anna: And that was like a really warning sign that, okay, I don't think I'm that good.Yes. Yeah, definitely. And I think that's so understandable and fair enough. And to be honest, I would have been exactly the same. Like I would have been like just talking in supervision about how it's impacting me sort of sometimes don't realize. It's not that you're becoming negative, but maybe you're becoming, I think I was getting a bit jaded, like just about the industry and all that sort of thing.

and I agree, I think, especially if you're working for someone, depending on what their ethos is, or you are doing things to how they like. So I think you do lose yourself a bit, especially if it's maybe not aligning with how you would maybe run things.

Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. There's that disconnect. And I for sure that's something that's always struck me is that I've always felt like I. Wasn't a proper psychologist. Like I was always acting like a psychologist because like how this psychologist that we were like showed in like masters, like through training felt like it was so different to who I was, someone who's like highly unstructured.

Like I was just kind of go with the flow. I'm very relational, like in my therapy, like I even, yeah, I think I've said this before on another podcast, but I like joke that I've. Almost, I've always struggled to like set an agenda and like all of these things and it was

such

Anna: I'm the same. Yeah.

Caitlin: it was such a struggle.

And then I took that personally, like. All of a sudden that means like, I'm not a proper psychologist and like having that, I think in the back of my mind as well was really challenging and definitely contributed to my, the psych burn out, but

Anna: Yeah. It's, it's so true. It's, it's sort of this one size fits all, or that's kind of what we get taught anyway. And then you sort of meet other psychs or you see a psych yourself and you're like, you're really cool. And you just go with the flow. Like I, that's what I align with. Why, why am I feeling like it's got to be like, so to the book,

Caitlin: exactly, kind of relax a little bit and find that. But tell me about your podcast. Cause it seems like it was such a passion thing and that you were just You had all these ideas and then as soon as you put your like pen to paper it just all came out. Tell me about that process.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. So, my podcast is called Does My Psychologist, like Me , spent a while trying to like, come up with a name and I was like, I feel like that's a name that really, like, it's juicy. 'cause I feel like anyone that's in therapy is always like, what's my therapist think of me? so yeah, look, I think it came out of yeah, like this.

Creativity, creative itch, the fact that I do work and live rurally, so I'm obviously not got coworkers. I've obviously got supervisors who I touch base with and, you know, peer supervision, but it's not, I guess I was just feeling a bit disconnected and disconnected, not only from other psychs, but just from the industry, I think from just so far away.

And, And I just, yeah, I just sort of thought I love talking psychology and I want to talk like real talk with psychologists, you know, like I kind of envision it's this vibe of you're in the coffee room having a cuppa or you're doing after work drinks over, you know, a cup of coffee. A couple of glasses of wine and you're just talking about the realities of your life and who you are and why we do what we do.

And, so that's kind of where it sort of stemmed from was just, we've all got stories and given the role that we're in, of course, in the therapy room, it's not about us. It's about our client. but I just think we all have such wonderful stories to tell. So it's like, obviously we don't do that in the therapy room.

So like, let's just. Create a platform where, you know, it's very each to their own. People can be as personal and vulnerable as they want, or, you know, if they choose not to, that's totally okay as well. But yeah, it's just a mix of like the humaneness of psychologists, hearing their stories as well as always learning something.

So we always talk about their work or their passion and I'm always learning things as well. So, yeah, and it's just been so lovely to connect. It's really filled my cup in that sense.

Caitlin: Yeah. Like particularly working rurally and being there like the only psychologist and there's I don't know what you think about this, but there's something about being a psychologist and it's a little bit different from other health professionals. Like I, yeah, I don't know. I don't know exactly know what it is, but I don't know if it's like the stigma or something that's involved with psychologists, but yeah, even just cause I live rurally as well.

And there's just something I always feel a bit like. going to like the local supermarket, I get really wound up about it, but

Anna: Yeah. Totally.

Caitlin: know what it is. Yes.

Anna: me all my referrals? Like, I don't know how I feel about that. Or, yeah. And I think there's just such a confidential, such a confidential realm of it. Like, of course you do supervision where you share and peer supervision where you might, you know, you share cases, but even then it's, it's very brief.

Like, I don't feel like we ever sit down and be like, how's that client? So I do feel. Because out of respect and it's just such a sacred and special space. So I think we do hold a lot more than we realize. So maybe that's some of the difference compared to maybe a GP or a nurse or something. It's you kind of getting access to the most vulnerable parts of people.

Caitlin: Yes.

Anna: I don't know.

Caitlin: Yeah. I think we're onto something there about, yeah, the, it is such a sacred space and that like such a responsibility as well. It's quite, can be quite heavy. It's a, but it's also a beautiful thing.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlin: Yeah. To have those moments where people are sharing. Yeah, something that's so personal and you might be the first person to hear or something like that.

It's

Anna: Yeah.

Caitlin: thing. Yeah, but tell me about your, Actually, I wrote down this little thing. I really love your intro where you say about how, this is on your podcast, about how you're like, you thought psychologists had all their shit together, but then you became one and you realized that

Anna: How far that can be from the truth, which I'm now like, hopefully all the other psychs I've interviewed, don't think I'm talking about them. I'm like, I'm not talking about any of you, I'm talking about myself, don't worry. I haven't interviewed anyone that I've been like, Jesus.yeah, look, I think it's that when I was in high school, I started, I would just, my parents would take me to a psychologist, probably when I was 14.

And, you know, probably total transference, but I really put her on a pedestal of like, her life must be amazing. She'd be such a good mom. I want her to adopt me. And she was just such a pivotal. role. Like I, you know, she was beautiful and she served that purpose that I needed. But yeah, I just had this idea that like, they must like, psychs just must have all their shit figured out, you know, know exactly what to do, never get angry or upset.

And yeah, it's just quite funny that we're just, you know, Humans, like it's, we're literally the same as anybody else.we all have the same sort of challenges. You know, we're all coming from, a lot of us are coming from childhood wounds or wounding along the way. And that's what brought us to that line of work.

And that's what inspired us to want to heal and grow. And then, you know, to sort of pass that on to other people. yes, I always love hearing people's journeys and stories.

Caitlin: absolutely. I love that, like, we're showing the humanity of psychologists, because we are, we're humans and we're, we're flawed, like everyone, but that's, you know, probably sometimes what makes us great clinicians,

Anna: Yes. Yeah. And I guess that, and in, yeah, and, but that's the thing, I guess we just don't talk about it a lot. I think it's becoming more open, you know, now with social media and, lots of psychs on there with good following and things like that, I think, I think it's changing too. I think clients want to know more of that humaneness, whereas before it was like blank blank.

It's like.

Caitlin: Yeah,

Anna: You wouldn't have even known the site that you got referred to. You're just ringing them off this referral that you get from your GP. You're lucky if they had a website and you're just going in blind. Whereas, yeah, I think now clients have the opportunity to like do a little stalk on the website or have a look and go, Oh, that face that, you know, I aligned with that person.

so yeah, I definitely think it's changing. That it's not so much stigma and shame for us if we are challenged because I just feel like in my four plus two with my supervisor who I saw her, you know, every week for two years.

I just, I need to ask her like what she thought of me from like the beginning to the end, because I just feel like those first six months I would have been super guarded and was just like trying to hold it together and like, everything's fine.

And I think she was like, are you okay? You know? And you're like, no, you're like crying. And she was, yeah. Cause it's, it was just this idea that like, Oh, you know, she's a professional and.

Caitlin: yeah.

Anna: Can't show her that I'm, you know, having a rough time,

Caitlin: Yeah,

Anna: but yes, I think it's changing.

Caitlin: which like think, how good is that? When you say it like that, it makes me feel more excited. what a time to be a psychologist and work as a psychologist in this time where we can be a bit more, yeah, like, show our, bring our humanity into the session and not like we were talking about ourselves, being a little bit more us.

Anna: Yeah. Being authentic. Yeah. Feeling like you can be yourself. Cause. Yeah. I mean, even my supervisor, I remember saying she was like, Oh, you know, blank slate dress very plain. well that's just how she chose to do things. And I think I did that a bit in the beginning as well, like, Oh, I can't dress too funky because then you'll look really young and people who are older, whereas, yeah, it's just like, just.

What you want to wear, obviously professional, but you know, just show up as you are, but I think you're right. I think it is an exciting time, especially because there's so many different ways to be creative and different income streams. And you just see all the cool stuff that other psychs out there are doing.

It's really exciting.

Caitlin: It is, and that's, yeah, so right about those different ways to work and diversify and yeah, do different things and that's actually something I'm curious to hear what you think about this. Like I had someone comment recently that they're worried about starting a creative.

Business sort of creative outlet because they're worried about people thinking that they must be burnt out because they're starting not doing like one on one therapy work. And yeah, I don't know. what do you think of that? Yeah.

Anna: it's, it's an interesting perspective and it's, it's one that I would not even have thought of. Like if I saw a psych doing something and they weren't doing one on one work would not even enter my brain. Like what, what I would think is that's just awesome. Like that must be their passion or they're just wanting to move away from that sort of thing.

individual intense work. And I think that's okay. And I think as it's changing as well, I think it seems to be a bit of a natural progression for like private practice. It's like it starts out, you see sort of clients and then maybe you move to supervision and seeing clients, and then maybe you progress to, Being a practice owner.

Like I think that's totally okay to, you do want to transition out of that sort of clinical role, I think that's completely understandable as well.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Anna: fine. But that's an interesting perspective, but not one I would have ever thought of.

Caitlin: Yeah, no, so here I was, quite, I didn't know, yeah, not surprised by it, or maybe I was a bit surprised by it, but I thought, well, it must be a common, potentially a common thought that some people have and like why it's so important, for like you to be doing your podcast and you're talking to people who are doing, different things and

Anna: Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlin: it's very exciting.

It really is. and tell me, something that I was really curious is, To hear about what you've learned from interviewing so many different psychologists on your podcast

Anna: I've learned, so much that we are all the same, like we were saying before, that we're all, Human and, got humility and compassion. And I think just the motivation and passion that you can feel through each, each interview in which are the niche or whichever line of work they do. I always learn.you know, whether it's something about strategies or tools that they use for a certain type of, therapeutic framework, like pretty much anything I'm curious about in the interview, I'll just be like, yeah, tell me more about that or, so you just, yeah, I'm just feel like I'm learning as much as I'd say the audience are.

yeah, it's a, maybe two, just like how lucky we are. So I think it's just, you can't help but leave the interviews feeling like on a high and really motivated and like inspired. So I think that's quite a beautiful thing that we're all on that sort of journey together and just such beautiful people.

Yeah. And just such a wealth of knowledge, I think. And just, I think too, so many psychs out there willing to connect and willing to talk andwhat's the word like that sort of psych gang mentality. It's not like anyone's being like, Oh, you're doing that. That's similar to me. It's everyone's very supportive.

And cheering each other on, I think is what I've, yeah, everyone's really supportive and wants the best for everyone and is willing to kind of help out in any way they can.

Caitlin: that's great. It makes me so happy that it is that supportive environment How was that like when you were doing your four plus two, did you have a core kind of group like friends or colleagues that were going through it that you could all,like debrief with and what did that look

Anna: No, no. And I think that was probably a huge downfall for me. Like obviously the places I worked, I had coworkers, but they were counselors or already psychs or teachers or whatever. I didn't really have anyone that was. In it with me, like in that moment and in hindsight, I'm like, surely there would have been like Facebook groups or like apparently there was, a Facebook group would, would, there would be about tips and tricks for the national exam.

I didn't even know that I, yeah, I did that whole study and all that stuff on my own. So,that would have been hugely beneficial. I mean, now if I was doing it, it's a no brainer. I'll just Google Facebook groups, but maybe back then maybe it wasn't such a big thing. Yes. Yeah. So I definitely missed out on that sort of, that would have been hugely helpful to have had.

Caitlin: that unknown unknown that yeah, there's because yeah, I think it's only been since I've been in business that I've realized how big Facebook groups are. Like, I didn't really before that know that it was such a big thing and they can be so helpful and

Anna: Oh, there's always something on there. There's always someone asking something that you never thought of or when you ask people are so quick to give you supportive answers.

Caitlin: so generous with their knowledge and all of that. Absolutely. going back to creativity, how was like having a podcast and having that creative outlet? like maybe that playfulness, how has that impacted your clinical work?

Anna: I think massively, you know, more so than I would have anticipated because I think I just feel like I am more playful maybe in session, which I don't know, maybe just cause I'm feeling more that sort side of things. My cups felt a bit full. I think it's given like a little boost of like more confidence, I think.

It is, you know, you're not only getting awesome feedback from the person that you interviewed, like you just had this great interview and then after you're like, Oh, that was so great. And then you edit and then you release. And then they come back being like, Oh, I thank so much. That was really awesome.

And then obviously getting lovely feedback from listeners. So,I guess it's helped me. Yeah. It's just made me kind of go. Maybe I sort of know what I'm doing, so that's really nice and just, yeah, connecting with lovely people, and yeah, I definitely think, and of course, like I said before, just learning lots of different things from psychs so, you know, that of course comes into my clinical role, sort of going, okay, yeah, didn't think of that or,you know, that's a really fun or, playful sort of activity or whatever.

It's just sort of brought a bit more probably energy and zest back.

Caitlin: Beautiful. What a good word. Zest. I like

Anna: Zest. Yeah.

Caitlin: Zest.

Anna: Yeah.

Caitlin: No, but that, oh, that makes me so happy that that is the thing, Bring up that space to, play and create and, but you're so right. There is an element of sometimes particularly working in a solo, you work in a solo private practice like your own, right?

And so you don't have that feedback necessarily from people. Of course your patience, but it's a bit different when it's like a supervisor or your colleague saying something. And so having that little bit of feedback that you're Doing something that's like meaningful or that kind of

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause you definitely have times, I mean, obviously you're new into it, but you know, you might have moments where you're like, is there any point of me doing this? Is anybody listing like, you know, and then you get feedback or whatever and you go, yeah, it is, it is purposeful and meaningful.

Yeah. Do you feel it has a sort of similar effect for you? Like so far have you felt it's itching your creative side?

Caitlin: definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Like the writing, like my copywriting, outlet has been, amazing for, my clinical work. my supervisor says that my, Confidence in my copywriting has like sponsored my, my confidence in my, therapy work, which is quite an interesting thing, which I guess maybe makes sense with like self efficacy or something.

but yeah, it's just allowed me to sit more and be more me.

Anna: Yes.

Caitlin: just, yeah. I don't feel like I'm doing anything wildly different, but it's just like that confidence just to sit there and feel like I have. I can maybe be more present with my patients because I do have an outlet for things potentially.

Yeah, but we'll see about the podcast. Like I've had so much fun recording them at the moment. what have you, like, what have you learned from like a, more like the nuts and bolts things like about, have you had any mistakes or like, mock ups and things like that recording?

Anna: it's been really smooth sailing, thankfully. Like, most, yeah, we haven't had connection issues, you know, Zoom's obviously a great platform.for a little while there, I was paying an editor because I was just like, ah, can't be bothered. And he was a legend and he did a lot of few things for me.

and then now I'm sort of doing it myself. yeah, no, it's been pretty smooth in that sense. Like obviously I can do things better, like get a microphone and you know, you can upgrade your stuff.you have your, your moments where you think like, I'm not going to get it done in time.

Like I'm very, once I make a commitment, I'm committed. So in my head, I'm like the podcast has an episode has to come out by Monday morning, each fortnight. So it's like, Can't be a few hours late. Like that's what I've committed to.

Caitlin: So that is,

Anna: yeah, yeah. So that's, you know, that's my deadline. so yeah, no, it's been pretty good.

Like everyone's, you know, I think I interviewed, oh, I was really excited for one episode that was me interviewing my own psychologist.

Caitlin: oh, wow. Oh my

Anna: I did interview her and it was, I know it was so good. It was like a dream

Caitlin: Oh, what? Yeah.

Anna: so we've interviewed at all and then I'm not, unfortunately it's good for her, but she, just mentioned she got a new role or something and they were like, look, try not to have any social media type presence.

So she just asked for it not to be released. And I was like, of course. Yeah. Anyone can revoke at any time. And I was like, damn, it's such a good episode that would be the only thing. But otherwise, otherwise everyone's been awesome.

Caitlin: Oh, it's so good to hear. But yeah, like interviewing your psychologist, did you get an answer to your question? Like, do they like you or?

Anna: Yeah, I did. At the end I was like, so she just laughed. She was like, I would hope that you could tell and feel in session that that's the case. I was like, yes, yes, definitely. but yeah, it's so, it was wild to have like her kind of, on the opposite side of things.

Caitlin: Yeah. Did you feel thatlike a dynamic change?

Anna: Yeah. Like I felt a bit, I felt more nervous than probably I had with all the other ones. And we talked about it a lot. It's, you know, extensively because she was obviously very mindful of like, are you sure? Like this can have a dynamic shift and, But you know, I was sort of like, it's more about you.

Like, it's obviously not about us or our relationship. so yeah, it did feel a bit, bit weird, but it was cool.

Caitlin: Yeah. Good on you for doing that. I've been doing that. It would have been, yeah, even though it's a bit of a shame that I wouldn't get released, but even just that experience,

Anna: Yes. Yeah, definitely

Caitlin: that's awesome. I've, I've actually asked, I don't know how, I don't know if I would feel comfy interviewing my psychologist, but I'm interviewing my clinical supervisor. So like at some stage, yeah, which should be good. Am I going to talk all about, Like my process and like how I, yeah, was grappling like the two businesses and all of that just to, I think it might be helpful for some people there.

Anna: definitely. That'll be awesome. That'll be really good to listen to

Caitlin: Yeah. Just to hear that it's not like a necessarily a smooth sailing thing and that there's a lot to consider and, but coming out the

other side and that's okay. Yeah.

Anna: Yeah. So much to unpack.

Caitlin: Exactly. Yeah. So I'm, I'm excited about that one,

Anna: Ooh, I'm excited to listen to that one. That'll be, yeah, that'll be interesting.

Caitlin: And what have you got like coming up, in your, do you do anything like in your business apart from one on one work? Don't you do workshops or group stuff

Anna: No, it's in, like, I'd like to, I was going to say it's in the works. It's not even in the works. It's just manifesting up here and I actually haven't done anything about it yet. But yeah, that's. It's definitely something I would like to look at at some point is, you know, different income streams would love to, you know, have little worksheets or whatever that think, you know, on, on different things that people can sort of download or, you know, you pay a very small fee for something.

yeah. And look, there is a lot of scope, I guess, being rural in the sense of, you know, you could offer like. Different businesses, mental health training, or I could do things like day workshops, you know, where you. I could go to Jurien Bay and, you know, I'm sure a lot of parents would be keen for a mental health workshop for adolescents or whatever.

so I, again, like I've got all the ideas, but it's, I guess I probably really need to sit down with a supervisor or a coach and be like, what am I doing? Where am I going? And how do I like, funnel it down type thing because it's just, it's all up here.

Caitlin: to make,

Anna: nothing set in stone yet, just, but yeah, I would like to sort of do a few different things.

In, in the future. And you know, cause I guess that way too, you can reach more people in less of a time. Like obviously one on one is great and you have such an impact, but you're only impacting and educating or whatever, so many people at a time. So

Caitlin: yeah.

More of a difference, but yeah, it's a different, but it is a different thing to think of and all of the, I don't know, like the nuts and bolts of making a, if it's like a program or a worksheet and then like having to market things as a whole different thing. How have you found that side of business side of your practice?

Anna: In terms of marketing.

Caitlin: Hmm.

Anna: Yeah. So when I first started, so there was no sort of other psychologists within, I don't know, a hundred K radius sort of all around. So I literally just started, I went to Jurien Bay. They've got a, you know, a GP clinic there. So I just met with them and, you know, put it on all the different, like country Facebook groups or community chats.

but it was really, yeah, it was just a waiting game initially. And then once the GP started sending referrals through, it sort of became pretty steady from there. And then, just a lot of word of mouth. So it's kind of the way I've been doing things is kind of, I guess the more old school way, whereas maybe now it's Social media and all that sort of thing.

Mine's definitely people want to know a bit more about you, especially in the town that I'm in. I didn't get anyone local for a while when I won, I was like, Oh, maybe there's, I knew that there was a need, but I thought, you know, is it reluctance? And I think they want to know who you are and that you're.

You're a local. So I feel like that, you know, they see me around at the club or at the shops. And last year I did like a mental health event. So,I feel like I sort of proved myself or something. So yeah, I haven't like, I've got, you know, Instagram pages and that I really don't do a lot on them because I find the work sort of is coming just locally anyway.

Yeah.

Caitlin: yeah, when you were talking about like, yeah, the local and having to prove yourself or that kind of thing, I was just, yeah, I, I really struggled in my first, cause I live in a rural Queensland and yeah, the town is very much, yeah, if you're not a local people know. And so like, who is this psychologist coming in and can we trust them, which is fair enough.

And I'm the opposite. I hide away. Make my husband go to the IGA, and all of that, I'm like, but you're so right, and that's probably why I'm. I struggled a little bit in the first year, with the business side of things, and getting referrals and all of that, but it's all

Anna: Yeah. Oh, for sure. And look, I think if I'd gotten clients straight away from my local town. I probably would have done the same. I would have been like, well, I can't go to the country club and oh, I don't want to go there or I don't know. It's almost worked. It's actually was quite nice. I think in the beginning while I was feeling maybe not as confident because I think you worry clients are going to run up to you in the street and be like, I'm going to tell you my problem. So I think it was, It was really nice initially being like, cool. If I don't have anyone local, like I just get free reign of the town then. so, and then now I think I've got that confidence and you just may, and like the clients that I do have, you just, I just have that real. conversation with them.

And they're all really good. Like they're like, yeah, of course, you know, I understand, you know, in here it's therapy out there, you know, you just, you are, just Anna at the club. So yeah, I feel probably lucky in that sense. It did work that way. Cause otherwise a hundred percent would have probably been like, well, I can't go anywhere now because. They'll see me having a glass of wine at

the club

Caitlin: and then,

Anna: maybe that's why they liked me because they thought they were like, Oh yeah, she, she has a few on a Saturday night. She seems all right.

Caitlin: that's such a, that's such a good point. Actually, I haven't thought, I haven't thought about. That because, yeah, I really struggled in terms of, being so isolated, but I can't go out because I'm a psychologist and what are they going to think of me and all of that. But you're so right.

Like not having any clients, if I didn't have anyone local, then like, I probably would have, yeah, been more able, felt I was able to go out and be a human and do human stuff.

Anna: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's where it's gets really hard being rural.

Caitlin: It is. Interesting. That's for sure. I'm trying to think, is there anything that I haven't asked you that you would love to say or anything that like has come up as we've been talking?

Anna: Well I guess one of maybe your questions in there was about challenges, I guess starting

Caitlin: Yes,

Anna: advice, so I'm just asking a question for you,

Caitlin: that's all right. That's all right.

Anna: not that it's a burning thing, but I thought it's probably,

you know, worth,

And I guess the challenge, whether it's a podcast or whether it's, any sort of creative venture, outside of the scope of, you know, the, the client work, I guess the challenges that I've found is obviously time.

So finding the time to, because I have a toddler, so, you know, I do try to do things on when she's around and I don't, I don't get very far, but yeah, it's like having the time. Obviously now I'm doing my editing. So feeling like motivated to sit there and like, listen, and then go back again and listen again.

And, you know, doing posts and, and yeah, I think, like I said before that, Motivation sometimes can like ebb and flow, but you know, I think it, it, it ebbs probably when I haven't done an interview for a while, so it's like, okay, throw yourself back into it, or even doing chats like this with you, I'm now like, I'm all inspired again.

So it's, you know, just finding, whatever, yeah, whatever works. and I think in terms of advice, I know for me, which it's all worked out fine, but when I get an idea, I rush, so I definitely cut corners.so I probably could have slowed down a bit more and just done a bit more research. Like it wasn't such a rush to kind of interview everyone and get those episodes out.

So I just think take your time and, you know, do things when you're ready.

Caitlin: That's good advice that I need to I think I need to listen to because, yeah, I'm like at an idea. And then if it's one that I'm like, yes, I want to do that. all of a sudden it's like, all right, so tomorrow, we're setting up this. We're like writing this and, uh

Anna: And it's like I pigeonhole myself then, and then I'm so overwhelmed because I'm like, well, I said, it's going to be done tomorrow and I just rush and I'm all panicky and it's like, Oh my God, just slow down, girlfriend.

Caitlin: I feel that's, uh, yeah,having ideas is a lovely thing, but then it's also important to, yeah, be able to also have that part of you that like, yeah, slow and do it on your time. But thank you for that. In terms of, yeah, the challenges, it's a good thing to know that, you know, there are challenges, but yeah, you can overcome them, I

Anna: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's, I guess. You know, in those moments to when I'm, you, you know, you're like, well, where am I going? Or what am I doing? That's just further, further for me, like, yeah, maybe it is time to do some coaching or supervision around where you do want to go or what it's all about or what the purpose is or it's, yeah, it's just going back through and reading some of your feedback and being like, this is why we're doing what we're doing.

It's not about making millions of dollars, although that would be nice.

Caitlin: that'd be

Anna: It's just about, yeah, giving a platform, sharing stories, getting my voice out there, and that's kind of what I'm doing. So

Caitlin: beautiful to have

Anna: on to that.

Caitlin: Yeah, and that's so great that you did take that time at the start to write out like your vision and your mission and like what you were doing so you can come back to that. I think that's so important. And then we say like, start with your why or whatever like that,

Anna: Yeah.

Caitlin: it's just nice.

But yeah, I think it needs to be, deeper than that, a little bit, like what we've been talking about. but how can people find you?

Anna: Yep. Yeah. So like I said, I'm not going to huge Instagram presence or anything.but yeah, just on Instagram, I've got obviously my Instagram page for the podcast. Does my psychologist like me. And then I've got my work Instagram. So that's Anna Oliver psychology. And yeah, that's pretty much. Really it that I've got at the moment again, I need to kind of do a really cool website at some point, but yeah, just plodding along.

It's what works for now.

Anna: Plod, plodding along, doing things when you can.

Caitlin: All right. Right now time for my favorite part of the interview, which is the rapid fire questions. So super curious and tell me, what is your favorite. film and also the favorite character from that field.

Anna: my favorite movie is Interstellar and my favorite character is Cooper. So that's played by Matthew McConaughey and it's just the best movie because it has like wormholes and three dimension and they just, it's space and I just fricking love space.

I also fricking love Bridget Jones diary. Bridget Jones is just an idol. Awesome. Love it.

Caitlin: What great films. And yeah. Interstellar Incredible. And speaking of Matthew McConaughey, I read all, I listened to his biography recently called Green lights. it was. Really really good. He reads it as well. So of course you can just imagine what it's like. So good. So highly recommend that. Yeah, of course, Bridget Jones's diary is a. fab Film as well. But tell me what is a concert that you'll never forget.

Anna: a concert that I'll never forget. I went to Bruce Springsteen. What was that? Probably five or six years ago. And that was epic.

Caitlin: Well, yes, I could imagine that will be epic. Like capital letters epic. and then the last question is what sort of absurd thing that you love, or like a quirky thing about you?

Anna: And yeah, no idea on the absurd thing that I love.

A weird thing. Have you ever had an ulcer and you put Vegemite on it? Do you know how much that burns and hurts? But I do it anyway. Like why?

Caitlin: Oh my God. Yes. I know. I know exactly what you're talking about. But yeah, why. Why we could. Have a little bit of discussion about that maybe. That's funny. I love it.

exactly, but I'll put like the links in the show notes and link to your, podcast as well, because yeah, I love, I think we're on the same page in terms of like helping make psychology more, yeah, show the humanity and the real realness behind

it.

I love that, but thank you so much. This has been a lot of fun and time flew, so that's a

Anna: Yeah. Good. Oh, thank you. I think it's awesome. It's exciting what you're doing and I'm all about making connections. So yeah, we'll have you on mine soon.

Caitlin: Oh yeah. I would love that.

Anna: Yeah,

Caitlin: Thanks so much, Anna

Anna: no worries.

Caitlin: Alright, that's the end of another episode. Thank you so much for tuning in to Healers with Hustles. If you've enjoyed today's episode, will you do me a tiny favour and subscribe to the show? Just tap the subscribe button on your favourite podcast platform and you'll be the first to know as soon as a new episode drops.

Thanks so much for listening. Okay, ta ta for now.